Background on myself

I am 24 years old, graduated from University of Utah where I majored in Urban Planning.
I graduated in May 06 and moved back to my hometown just north of Chicago to be closer to my family and for the new job I took.

Background on my job

I work for a custom home building business. The only two real employees are my boss and myself. We work as real estate developers and are the project managers for all the work we do.

I had no real experience in building so the last two years has been a lot of trial and error and my boss teaching me a lot and putting up with a lot. I finally feel as if I am “getting it” and am becoming rather proficient at my job, but not to the point where I have reached the end of the learning curve with my job. I feel what I have learned has given me a greater appreciation for the workplace and taught me things college never could have and this is why I am so loyal to my boss, he took a chance hiring me really.

Now I’ll speak of how my job actually stacks up:

Compensation:
I was to be hired on as an independent contractor. This works out great for employers as they don’t have to contribute to paying any portion of my taxes, health care, or retirement in any way.
The way we talked about it my compensation started out as follows:
$30,000 a year starting
cell phone bill paid for ~$150 a month
gas/vehicle stipend of ~$150 a month.

Pros:
• Being able to work easy hours. (9 – 4 usually)
• Driving around in my car most of the time listening to music and I am not confined to an office
• Taking off time when I want, be it vacation or I want to go to a Cubs game or something
• The chance to learn how the building business operates and be immersed in every aspect of it(as opposed to being in an office being just part of a puzzle). This is huge for me.

Cons:
• Im an independent contractor so I pay all my own taxes
• I pay for my own health insurance
• I put on a lot of miles and gas through my Jeep.
• No retirement savings acct to contribute to.

Recent History
Everything was going great for job-wise. In the first year and half I was working with the builder, we built (1) $2.5 million dollar spec house, (1) 4 million dollar spec house and acquired a great piece of property upon which to build a 6 million dollar spec house.

Then the building crisis hit that everyone is aware of. So here my company sits with three pieces of property that no one has bought and we are paying juice on every month, somewhere in the neighborhood of $30,000 a month. The future of our company lies in these properties selling. If they don’t sell, we can only pay out of pocket for so long before we fold.

To adjust we picked up 2 remodel jobs that had budgets of 200,000 and 420,000 dollars. We were the project managers for these jobs and our fee was 15 percent. The first job our take was $30,000 and the second job our take was $60,000 roughly. Of that, I was promised 10% of our net profits at the end of the project. So my take should be $9,000 dollars roughly. I quickly became the person managing these to projects on a day to day basis and felt myself doing the bulk of the workload. I do not find this a problem as I crave independence and working alone. I feel I can accomplish things much better this way. The subcontractors liked me and so did the homeowners. I feel it is fair to say I put my soul into these projects from beginning to end and we had no problem getting paid out in full. This is where I should expect my bonuses right?

The only problem is that my company is extremely strapped for cash right now, with no promises of more coming anytime soon. My boss has always stressed to pay subcontractors first and foremost and we have. Additionally, he always abided by the motto “you don’t steal from peter to pay paul”. My concern is that since we are running out of money as a business, the conversation may come up where my boss says he cannot pay me the bonuses for completing these projects, he has to pay bills instead. It will boil down to bonus money that is owed to me will have to be used to keep the company afloat. What the hell am I supposed to say to this if it arises?

I feel a certain amount of loyalty to my boss, he is a great guy at heart and has taught me quite a bit, but I also signed onto this job with expectations of getting paid for each project. My salary is mediocre at best. The reason for this is that I get paid via bonuses from each project, which motivates me to finish faster and do a good job, but now I may not even get that. But, its also not like my boss is hoarding cash for himself. Every dime we get goes towards paying the bills and he is surviving on credit cards basically.

So, what do I do now? We have two homes on the market, that if sold, I could receive commission checks totaling somewhere around $50,000. This could happen today or tomorrow or 1 year from now(provided we last that long) We just completed the two remodel projects where I am due $9,000. I love working at my job given what I am learning and the freedoms I have. I still receive my base salary of $30,000+remimbursments. If I quit, do I give up the guaranteed paycheck in these tough economic times?
I really am counting on these meager bonuses from the remodel job to move out of home, pay off my Jeep and get a place down in the city.

Cliffs:
• I work as a project manager for a construction company and love my job
• I make mediocre base salary and get bonuses when projects are completed
• The housing market sucks and my company picked up some remodel jobs in the mean time to pay bills
• We completed the projects, but my company is running low on funds.
• The conversation may come up where my company may not be able to pay me my bonuses.
• The answer is not as simple as QUIT. We have two completed spec homes where I could receive bonuses of up to 50,000 if they sell. The company is just one other guy and myself and he and I work great together and I cant really just tell him “go fuck yourself”
• I really am counting on the bonuses, but the company may not survive much longer.
• What the fuck do I do?

Once Again, I appreciate any and all that read my shit and can give me some advice!

From what I gather, you’re worried about not getting your bonuses, correct?

Bonuses are just that, bonuses. As in, optional, not guaranteed or expected.

As long as they can cover your minimum fees/pay, there’s probably not much you can do.
Kind of, but a bonus that is not guaranteed as i see it applies to projects like the spec homes we build. We may make a profit, we may show up with money at the closing.

The "bonus"(I should really redefine this) I receive for the remodel projects is a percentage of our profit that is to be paid to me at the successful completion of the project. We completed the project, the company took in X amount of money, I should receive 10% of x for the work I did, right?
I have come to terms with watching our spec homes sit and not receiving a dime for those, but these are actual projects we completed and got paid in full on.
But I also see your point in that I shouldn’t EXPECT them per se. I guess that is what bothers me so much. I was told I would be rewarded at the end and now its the end and the response could be "sorry, timing is bad, cant pay you". If this was a normal company I would go Office Space on the place, but I like my arrangement.
It sounds more like a commission than a bonus to me. And you are most certainly due your commissions.
I read your whole post but really don’t have much knowledge on the topic.. However, I came to say that’s some beautiful property you guys got there.
It’s not fair at all. You were promised a bonus and should receive it. You are an employee, not a partner. Though you don’t get the benefits for the amount of work that you do, you don’t have to face the risks either. If he absolutely can’t pay you the bonuses right now, then I would ask for a higher commission for when those houses do sell.
theres a savings acct you can contribute to: Its called the one you set up!!!!

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Huh? Could you clarify? If youre not asking about fitting in at work/school/town/city, where are you asking about fitting in?

Yes, of course. I realize it’s the truth though. I fit "somewhere" I just don’t fit in with the average group of people. It’s not a bad thing or a good thing, it’s simply the result of my life circumstances. I feel it, but I don’t let it consume me or stop me from being satisfied with the people who I do connect with.

I always feel that way. I don’t do anything about it because that’s the way I am. It sucks, but that’s the way it is. Sometimes I wish I could be more outgoing, perhaps less self-aware, perhaps more immature (I don’t claim to be very mature under certain circumstances, though), perhaps more funny so people would stick around me more. But I am not, and it wears myself out when I try to be something I am not, which sadly, I have to do everyday because of another issue.

I very rarely find people who I do feel comfortable with and can talk about anything, and people rarely find in me a friend. I guess I’m one of those "first-impression" guys. For older people I’m probably still a kid for them. For people my age I’m probably just weird.

That’s pretty much it. But there are always people who will make you feel good. I reckon a lot of people have this feeling. Some just hide it. We’re all different, after all.
I feel you, I don’t fit in anywhere that I want to fit in. I spent alot of time running and growing up with the bad and wrong crowds. Unfortunatly now that im away from all that I have major issues getting in with the crowds i want to be with.

I don’t talk about myself, im very protective of my thoughts and feelings, very hard for me to trust people etc etc. When I meet new people I seem to come off as a prick because I don’t share as much as fast as they do. can’t tell them about all my happy childhood memorys because I dont have them. etc etc

So i seem to be stuck at the outside looking in. Although im busting my ass to change the way I am it just takes alot of hard work. It hasn’t paid off yet but im making progress.
I feel the same way often. I’m overly mature for my age, I don’t drink or go out and hit the bars. I grew up with an alcoholic parent and drinking does not interest me in the least. Most women look at me like I’m nuts because of this.

For the most part I just keep to myself. It makes for a lonely life.
Yeah. Every day I feel like I don’t really fit into the world around me in general, except when I’m at work; I work in a tech-heavy office with a bunch of geeks of various professions, so I’m pretty well at home there, but when I walk out of the office, I feel like I walk into a world of bars and pro-sports and expensive cars and shallow women, none of which I have any interest in.

The important thing to believe (and I say this even though I’m no good at it myself) is that you’re only noticing the parts of the world around you that you don’t like, and ignoring the parts you do like. To get past it, you have to find the people you used to ignore and spend time with them — though depending on your preferences, that could be easy or it could be hard.

Good luck with that.

.

Though I didn’t have those issues with my parents, I do not like either to drink or go to bars. The result is basically the same, little chances to meet people.

In the same boat.

I’ve learned from experience that being overly mature at a young age is not the hip cool great thing that people think it is. Adults compliment that, and support that, and encourage that — but it’s a negative thing.

A child should be a child, not a caretaker to some fuckin’ drunk, or have to sit on the stairs listening at night as the dishes smash and the screaming or or hitting takes place.

I used to be overly mature too, but thank God I got a lot of counseling. Now I realize I wasn’t overly mature at all, I was forced to adapt to something abnormal, but I was still a kid inside, still naive about most things, and still going to make stupid mistakes.
I’m an enigma wrapped in a mystery. Sometimes I’m pretty sure I’m the only person alive who feels the way I do about certain things….but then I say "fuck it, I’m bored and need human contact." And I go out and get it.

Ford! Haven’t seen you around here in a while! What happened man? Last time I saw you was just after Valentine’s day last year- You were going through a horrible time but you had a great girl and seemed to to be in a really good place just before then. Sorry to hear you’re going through a rough spot again

Jetta- I guess I don’t really understand- could you explain? You mean you don’t feel like you fit in anywhere? Like not even with friends and family and the likes? That seems like it would be horribly sad. How do you deal with it Jetta?
Nobody fits in everywhere but more often than not, unless you are c omplete psycho you only feel this way – most people get along well and fit in with most other people.

Are you sure you’re just not over analysing the situation?
i dont feel like i fit in in the city im in i feel like i should be some place else but no worries just hafta find my niche i guess i mean i have friends and family and all but as soon as they leave……………. hope this makes sense

I hope you feel better.

When I think about it I never think I fit in but I don’t focus on that – I like to make people laugh and most people enjoy laughing so I use that.
thanks Mugatu iwishyouwerebeer LP and everybody else can always count on the asylum

I didn’t go away to college after I graduated from high school. I went to community college and so did my best friend. We’ve been best friends since we meet when we were 13 and inseparable ever since. When we were 20, she went to Utah to visit a friend of ours that was in the Air Force. She decided that she wanted to stay out there and start a relationship with him (yes, this is the same friend who has now been in an physically abusive marriage for the past 4 years- with that same guy.)

Before she moved, I had thought a few times about leaving Cleveland to go away to college or to just get out of there- but I was afraid to leave my friends and family. I couldn’t imagine my life without them around all the time. After she moved, it took a few months to get adjusted to life without her around.

She eventually moved back to Cleveland, but I learned a valuable lesson while she was gone. Don’t put your life on hold for someone else. If you want to go- then go. Life doesn’t stand still- people move away, they find jobs, they get married and have their own life. They’re not going to wait for you. You have to do what you feel is right for you.

I moved Dc about a year after she moved back to Cleveland. One day I woke up and I just knew- it was time to go. It was one of the best decisions I’ve ever made.

You will find new friends. You’ll be able to keep in touch and go back to visit the old ones. You’ll see and talk to your family, and you’ll probably miss them sometimes, but jetting out on your own is alot of fun- and you’ll learn more than you can imagine.

And, if you play your cards right, it’ll really give you a chance to find your niche

im bout to break down and cry tears of joy cause i think this is how im feeling thanks again
When it’s time to go- it’s time to go. It’ll hit you like a ton of bricks and you’ll just know. Take that opportunity and run with it.
I fit in with two groups the best. Ironically these are the druggies/musicians/artists/social outliers and the academics. I don’t want to sound like a pathetic teenager but I can’t fit in with the mainstream. I get depressed or nervous or something when I am exposed to most things popular. It’s mainly that lack of substance and soul with these things or the superficiality behind most of it.

While I have to understand and interact with the general public the most (Small business owner), I don’t feel comfortable doing it.

So I feel like I don’t fit with 90% of the people I meet. It’s not like I’m above them or anything either.

Weird. I’m 25 and I have yet to have that feeling. I mean, I knew I needed to go out of state for college, but afterwards I moved in with my father in NoVA to cut costs, and I’ve been content to live in a spare bedroom ever since. No tons of bricks in sight.

That’s not to say I don’t know I need to move out to get on with my life, I just don’t feel much inclination to get on with my life right now.

This sounds exactly like me.
It’s nice to know that someone else experiences the same thing.
now all i have to do is explain it to my best friend

Right now. Waiting for fall to move to Toledo with one of my best friend.

damn sorry dude looks i gotta wait another year but its not that far from my house so i guess i cant really relate

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Not quite sure where to start here, so I guess I’ll start with the beginning of our relationship.

Wife and I met through a good friend of mine, we went on a bunch of dates, started a relationship, six months later, we were engaged, 3 months later, married. Things were great between us, emotionally we clicked, we had tons of fun, never had many arguments or disagreements and always supported each other in everything we did. So, when we got married, it was paradise. Things were going well, we had our struggles, not fights, but had to deal with certain financial issues and insecurities from her that weren’t apparent before marriage.

About 8 months into our marriage, she meets this friend at work. A female co-worker who happens to be a lesbian. They hung out on the weekends and had some fun and did the girly thing with other co-workers, I worked nights on the weekends so it was nice to know that she didn’t feel couped up at home and not able to go anywhere. I wanted her to have friends and have fun, she needed that.

A couple of months later, friendship turns a little more serious. Lesbian friend has breakdown and falls "in love" with my wife. Wife and I talked about it and I told her of my apprehensions and worries, but she assured me that it wasn’t something she was going to act on. I trust my wife and knew that things would be okay because she said they would be. Turns out I was wrong. She begins returning these feelings and before I knew it, we were in marriage counseling with her trying to figure out why she was having these feelings and what she could do about them, or even if she could control them. She hadn’t done anything physical (i.e. sexual) with the friend until a couple of weeks ago, which I sort of knew something had happened because her mood had changed dramatically.

So, I sat down with her and asked her if she had done something wrong. She told me what happened and I pretty much broke down then. After talking we decided that maybe I should take some time to think about what I needed to do, so I began spending the days (work nights) at my parents house while she was still seeing this friend of hers.

2 weeks later now, we decided to separate so that she can work on her issues and I can get all of my finances taken care of so that we can begin to save for a house. She sees a counselor every week and has made progress, I know this and she knows this, so there is hope here.

The problem I have right now is that the friend moved in after I moved out. I’m having problems seeing how she will be able to get over this friend of hers and re-commit to our relationship, if she’s always there. I somewhat find comfort in it though because at this point she’s very emotionally distrought and I don’t think she should be alone. She can’t move in with family because she’s pretty much disowned (her family is very LDS and very anti-everything), and I can’t continue to be with her if she still intends to see her girlfriend.

I don’t quite know what to do. I know she’s trying to figure out what’s going on in her head that’s giving her these feelings, so she’s not giving up. I don’t have anything against gay people, it’s their choice or their natural orientation and that doesn’t bother me, but she’s never had this problem before. She’s dated many guys in the past, been hurt by a few and also had relationships boardering marriage before.

I guess this is now becoming more of a rant, so I’ll stop here. Ask any questions that you need answered. Am I justified in my actions?
I am so sorry that this is happening to you, it’s not fair, and it sucks. And don’t ever apoligise for how long once of your posts is in the asylum, the more open you are in here and the more you open yourself up then the more people will be able to try to help you or relate to you. This area is for any problem and all responces are serious and don’t get taken into offtopic or anything. They stay in the Asylum.

Reading your post I am sorry to see that this happened to you But you sound like you are a really great guy and personally I believe you deserve better than what you are getting from her. I know you love her, but hopefully you aren’t that blind that you are willing to put this all behind you and wipe the slate to get her back. I’ve never had something exactly like this happen to me but I wouldn’t be taking her back. There are alot more nicer woman out there and they wouldn’t treat you like this.

Can I be rude and ask how old you are? And I know I am probally saying too much but do you think that maybe you rushed to quickly through your relationship in the start? like to me 6 months isn’t a whole lot of time to really get to know someone, to me like after 1 – 2 years then you really kind of get to know eachother, but I suppose it depends on the person and that but 6 months to me isn’t long enough, but I will shut up about that now.

Don’t beat yourself up over her, because she was the one that did you wrong and she is the one that is going to realise what she lost in you. And just get your stuff together like your finances and let things happen by themselves, don’t force it. If it doesn’t happen then it’s not meant to happen.

But distance yourself from her and don’t go chasing her, otherwise you might force a desicison, but I personally hope that you find someone else that will love you and treat you the way you deserve to be treated not like this.

Do what is best for you, because nobody is going to be there to look after you and give you handouts.

Hopefully I made some sort of sense for you
You made quite a lot of sense and again, your advice and opinions are greatly appreciated. I’m one of those kind of people who can think things through better if he talks about them. So, getting this out in the open is a bit of a relief and a way to clear my head more than anything.

It’s not rude to ask my age, I’m young, only 22. She’s 25 now, so it was a non traditional sort of marriage. I do think that 6 months was quick. Some people take even less time and still make it, but overall I do know that rushing into things causes problems. I talked to her about this actually, she had asked if I had known this would happen would I have done it again. I said yes I would have, but I would have waited longer to get married, if we had waited, maybe this wouldn’t have happened.

I don’t really feel like I need to beat myself up over this, because it’s not really my loss. She’s the one who has to live with what she’s done, not me so I don’t think it’s necessary for me to sit and wallow in it. I also don’t find it necessary to bring it up to her and rub her face in it, so I don’t. When I talk to her now I just ask how things are going for her and how things have been going with the counselor and if she’s made any progress. Progress is what is important to me.

To answer your question about wiping the slate clean, I don’t intend to wipe it clean and just give her a clean chance. I’d want some kind of assurance that it wouldn’t happen again. Even if I had to become overbearing and check up on her with everything she is doing.

I’m willing to work this out, I just don’t want to ever go through this again and I’d have to have some way of KNOWING that it wouldn’t.

I have a feeling this will end up in divorce, I’m almost certain that’s how she feels as well. I’d like to know for certain that it’s the best option though. I want her to be happy either way, I’ve told her this, if it means being with someone else, I’m fine with that, I can move on, I just want her to be able to know where she wants to be and what would make her happier so that she doesn’t regret yet another poor decision.

Maybe I’m just an idiot who can’t see the light of day right now, that’s fine, but again, it helps me clear some of that out of my head so I can actually see the rays of clear thought.
Well the lucky thing for you is that you are still very young and there is so much other there for you still to go out and do and see. Hopefully whatever you decide to do makes you happy because no matter what anyone else thinks it is all that matters, if you’re not happy then you’re not going to enjoy it. Me personally so you know more about me, I turn 22 this year, and unlike you marriage is something that yes I would like to do one day but I am nowhere near ready to go out and do it. I have so much that I want to do for myself and I am not financially ready to commit to anything more than a relationship. I have been going out with my girlfriend now for about 14 months and she now lives with me, and well that’s all I am ready for. Her moving in was a big thing because I moved from home to be with her and well I normally don’t take big risks too early.

Some people do get married, engaged and all that sort of stuff really quickly, but at the end of the day you can’t commit to something when there are still things that you want to do. And yes I do agree with you that it was quick. But other people do it quicker, but you’re not them. And it’s not a race you need to do it because you want to and because you’re ready too, and not just because you can say it because you can afford to and because you are at that stage of your life that you really want to settle down.

Rubbing it in her face is just a waste of time and it isn’t going to achieve anything from it. If you want to be a friend that she can talk to then that is good for you. But don’t let her use you okay! Does that make sense? I know you probally still have feelings for her, But what do you want to happen?

I don’t really feel like I need to beat myself up over this, because it’s not really my loss. She’s the one who has to live with what she’s done, not me so I don’t think it’s necessary for me to sit and wallow in it. I also don’t find it necessary to bring it up to her and rub her face in it, so I don’t. When I talk to her now I just ask how things are going for her and how things have been going with the counselor and if she’s made any progress. Progress is what is important to me.

I am very suprised that you are willing to give her a chance, well I suppose but take things slowly, because you don’t have anything to prove to her but she has alot to prove to you. And there is no way that you can tell if it will happen, shit just happens, and in this case you were on the wrong end of the stick.

From what you are saying I am hoping for you that this is going to end in divorce because you deserve so much better than this. You’re a good guy and you want to look at the big picture about what is going to be good, but you have to put yourself first sometimes and stop thinking about what effect it is going to have on other people. You need to be happy with yourself and be doing what you want to be doing. Not what others want you to be doing, you are your own person and only you owns you. If she wanted to not make a bad desicion she would have thought really hard about what she did before she did it. But she just went straight on and didn’t give a shit about you and what it would do to you.

Thanks again.

I keep getting told by my peers and family that I’m a nice guy and deserve better than this. I agree to an extent, the extent that I don’t deserve to be put through all of this bullshit that she’s caused. However, when I remember how things were before, all I can see are good times, times when we’d hold each other at night after work, fall asleep together, make some sweet sweet love, and spend quality time together. Those times were so worth the struggles I’m going through now, and I think the reason that I haven’t said "fuck it" is basically because I want those back. I know that I CAN have those back, I just don’t know that she wants to do that anymore with me, or even if I want to do it anymore with her.

She’s the love of my life and I knew when we first started dating that she was very special and would be a big part of my life. I didn’t realize we would get married, but that’s how things turned out in the end, I don’t regret it one bit.

I’ve almost thrown in the towel and just conceded to the fact that we will end up getting divorced. She seems happy with her girlfriend and that’s really what I want for her. She deserves to be happy, regardless of what she’s done to me. But, like you said, I also deserve to be happy. It’s just a matter of what would make me happiest that I’m trying to determine now, it’s also what she’s trying to determine as well.

I’m just so lost and confused. Emotionally, physically, and mentally drained. My body is breaking from the stress, I’m getting sick from it, and I don’t know how much longer I can keep doing this. I have great friends and family who I can turn to, but most of them are so judgemental and I don’t want her being judged and me having to defend her and explain what she’s going through right now. I don’t need that, which is partially why I turned to OT for advice.

Let’s see what we can do to help you out.

Fair enough.

As soon as I saw this word, I flinched. Now obviously you didn’t see things before hand.

Exactly, you were a good husband in other words.

At this point distancing herself would have been wise. If you don’t want to get burned, don’t place your hand in the vicinity of the fire.

And I’m sure you trusted her, which was of course the best thing to do. However, I suspect much to my dismay that dishonesty is on the horizon.

And here it is.

This is extremely difficult. If she is homosexual, it’s game over. As far as current research shows, and it is my belief, that sexual orientation is not chosen. However given the dynamics of this marriage it would be incredibly shocking if that were the case. People are quite efficient at suppressing sexual orientation for awhile when under intense social pressure, especially religious and intolerant families.

Bisexuality however is a different story. Obviously sexual orientation runs along a spectrum. People fall all along inbetween two extremes. Extremely Homosexual, Extremely Heterosexual, and an array inbetween. Bisexuality is similar to having two options, or being towards the center of the spectrum. Say you go to a used car dealer, he has a BMW on the lot and a Corvette. You love both but you have the "choice" to be monogamous with only one (you get the point). While Bisexuality is an attraction to both sexes, they have the ability to choose while still honoring their true identity. Some use it as an excuse to "have both" — but that isn’t the way it works.

That is very unfortunate. It is a character fault, however I would be inclined to understand it if she were Homosexual, given the stigma. It has been incredibly difficult for some people to consciously accept their orientation, thus they enter marriages and relationships thinking "This is just the way it is, or this is what I really want". People can literally convince themselves they’re Heterosexual while supressing Homosexual feelings. They’re still responsible though.

Quite frankly I would feel incredibly disrespected. It is one thing to be conflicted about ones orientation and another to commit ongoing energy to another person when you’re married. The respectful thing to do would be to detach from the mistress during the time period of resolution. I’m not saying she has to cut contact entirely, but it should be minimal, only to update on the situation. That’s the appropriate thing to do given the context.

I’m not quite sure why one would need to "work on issues" when it is clear she is sexually attracted to women. It comes down to whether or not she was Homosexual, but suppressed it unknowingly, verse deception and blatant lying. Either way, you lose.

I think that’s incredibly disrespectful and a clear message that she’s not actually working on the issue, but rather that she is in-fact gay and prefers the company of her.

I suspect she’s been gay all along but probably suppressed it as a result of environmental and social stigma. The question now is whether you’re willing to ask her in simple terms "Are you homosexual and just weren’t aware of your orientation through out our relationship, or are you bisexual?"

If she says Homosexual, I’m sure you’ll be angry and hurt, but you’ll likely also be more inclined to forgive realizing there was not intention to betray, but if she had a choice, if she simply "cheated" — whether with a man or a woman, then deception is the word, and that is unacceptable.

You must be in a constant state of flux feelings. Anger, understanding, hope, frustration, confusion, etc.

I think the important thing is to understand that you can love and be angry with someone at the same time. I don’t get the impression that you’re allowing yourself much room to experience this.

Now this is only my opinion. I’m certain some others won’t understand.

This is the likely outcome.

I think you’re being way too passive here. In-fact I think you have a lot of strong feelings about this. If in-fact you were betrayed, I would be unbelievably angry.

I don’t think you’re an idiot, I think you’re in shock.

That is quite reasonable. You see, once you commit to marriage, I’m a proponent of doing everything in your power (including tolerating extenuating circumstances) which would otherwise be unacceptable upon first meeting a woman. When married, I would put forth the effort to resolve a conflict like this, however — I don’t think there is much to resolve here. Either you were betrayed knowingly, or it was an unconscious drive when finally broke and couldn’t be suppressed.

I can’t blame you. Imagine having a family and having had this happen? The whole reason trust is so critical in a relationship is to ensure the bond stays solid in order to raise a family — it’s evolution! To be betrayed undermines the entire process we’re programmed to follow!

I can understand that.

You deserve to be angry, that’s what you deserve. And to grieve.

I think that you need to express how you feel. I’m seeing a lot of intellectual understanding, but very little emotional honesty from you.

Your wife did one of two things. 1: Betrayed you, choosing to cheat, or 2: Unconsciously created what was always true, but she simply didn’t know or understand.

That’s what I think. The second one, I’d still be damn angry, but I wouldn’t feel betrayed in a personal sense but rather a "Damnit this is just fuckin’ unfortunate and pisses me off" but I likely wouldn’t grieve the loss in the same way as the other. The first one, I wouldn’t give her the opportunity to resolve the conflict, because she "chose" to continue having the girlfriend — in-spite of still being married and respecting the commitment. While I’m the type that doesn’t want a lover to make a promise they can’t keep, nor keep a promise they don’t want to keep — the disrespect would signal to me to detach entirely and I would be hostile in my grief. I would probably cry, I would be angry, I’d probably become depressed — I would go through the normal route of human loss.
I’m going to try to address the opinions and advice you’ve brought. Let me thank you in advance, as stated before, this really does help me clear my head and I can’t tell you enough how much I appreciate you taking your time to assist.

Concerning my feelings, I wholeheartedly agree I’m in a state of emotional shock. I can sense it and see it in myself because I keep going from wanting to cry, to full on crying, to anger, to sadness, back to crying and everything in between. It’s hard for me to make a decision right now because I don’t want to make one based on one set of feelings, I want a level head and want a clear answer from myself rather from a temporary emotion.

Something I forgot to mention was that when we were in seeing the counselor together, she brought up that at an earlier age she had had feelings towards a girl (in high school) she attempted to act on these feelings but those feelings weren’t returned so she never went back to them. This both helps me understand, but confuses me as well. She had some healthy relationships with men and some unhealthy relationships with men. One of those men she intended to marry. She’s also told me that those feelings have always been there.

This is the main reason why I haven’t really given up and didn’t immediately leave her and file for a divorce. I didn’t know if it was just an action that she couldn’t control and that she is having a hard time controlling still, or if it was a choice simply to indulge her fantasies. Going by what you’ve stated, I’m sure you’d draw up the conclusion that she’s homosexual and that she’s determining whether or not to supress that or not. I’m not 100% sold on that but I don’t discount it. That’s why I’m not angry at her and causing fights. That’s why I’m still civil to her, because I partially believe this is not completely her fault. I’m angry because she had the opportunity and choice to say no and to remain faithful, but chose the wrong option. I’m hurt, I can’t say that I’m not, I’m extremely hurt and as I said it’s taking it’s toll on my health, both physically, and emotionally.

What advice would you give regarding these options?

Should I:
a) Continue to wait patiently as she attends counseling so that she can determine for herself what the action was brought on by?
or
b) Concede to the notion that she is a homosexual and will not be able to maintain a monogomous relationship with a man whom she seems to no longer be sexually attracted to.

It’s a battle I’m constantly fighting. It’s almost like there’s 2 different versions of me choosing to believe 2 separate sides of this. I just want some clarity.

Thanks again…

You’re welcome.

You’re handling it appropriately, rather I was giving you an opportunity to express your emotion here if you wanted to. It seems though you want more rational information though, which is fine and understandable. If you decide to express emotion here when you’re ready, we’ll be available for that as well.

It appears she’s Bisexual based on the ambivalence. This leads me to believe she betrayed you.

I suspect she was Bisexual, had two options, but having never experienced the first (Since the feelings weren’t returned) that she continued onward suppressing the feelings. This case was difficult up until you mentioned that. Given that new information it is clear she wanted to "see what else was out there by exploring this relationship with this female." That is a betrayl. She made a conscious choice.

I’m convinced now that she’s Bisexual. Though I do believe some unconscious mechanisms were at work, they were not at work when she chose to be intimate with this woman. That was a conscious choice made out of a yearning to experience the other part of her orientation that was suppressed. That doesn’t relegate her responsibility to ongoing debate. She is responsible, and even without mal-intent, her desires came first over her commitment. Just because she’s ambivalent doesn’t mean you should pay the price waiting for her to pick Vanilla or Chocolate. In not choosing, she has chosen. She’s continued seeing the woman inspite of the truth being exposed and in-spite of ongoing counseling. She knows you’re there on the sidelines waiting, and that’s just wrong.

What sealed her fate for me was that she saw this woman secretly and established plenty of time for intimacy, chose each morning she woke up to deceive, then when faced with challenges to the marriage she continued to see the woman and is now having her move in (or already did).

This runs quite efficiently with the Bisexual urge. While the orientation can’t be controlled, the option to pick one or the other does, regardless of whether you’ve always had Chocolate and never tasted Vanilla.

Now, I will tell you where she betrayed you exactly. The moment she realized she wanted to try Vanilla (since she’d never had that experience but the feelings had been present) — had she said so, it would have been respectful to you, honest, and even if you couldn’t accept it, the truth would be present.

That’s exactly right.

I would choose option C: She was a bisexual who never had the experience of being intimate with a woman, the orientation was ambivalent so she went with one and stayed that course for awhile, she chose consciously to have a taste of the other option when an opportunity presented itself. Had she been honest in requesting to explore that aspect of her orientation, we would not be having this discussion. In-fact you two would likely be peaceful in your sexual relationship, having amiable notions to allow each other to do so. I would then present this "Option C" and see if this "probable" hypothesis is true for her. Ask her to be honest and clear so that you can do what you need to do and allow her to do what she needs to do. The least she can do is give you the truth in order for your own peace and your own ability to move on if needed.
Thanks again for the reply.

I’m going to go to bed now, been up for nearly 24 hours now so I figure it’s about time. I’ll write a reply and probably be able to open up a bit more emotionally. It’s still just settling in….

Do what you need to man. We’ll be here.
the woman sounds looney

If someone was able to change her sexual orientation and create an affair with your wife, then that doesn’t say much as to how she values the relationship. You deserve better, good luck.
Just now getting back to this, been one of those days.

I’m again having some emotional issues. I again keep going back and forth between anger, and sadness. I’m thinking about the choices associated with those feelings (i.e. divorce, or sticking with it). I’m leaning more towards divorce and I’m thinking she is too. She keeps saying I deserve better and that she doesn’t want to see me hurt anymore. I’m really thinking that the marriage is over, we’re just dancing around the D word and nobody wants to make the decision.

I still don’t know how this happened. One day everything’s perfect and going great, the next, we’re considering divorce and my wife is somewhat a lesbian.

This is so emasculating. I feel like I’m less of a man now because my wife doesn’t even want me anymore. It almost feels like I somehow drove her to it. I can’t place all of the blame on her because I feel somewhat responsible as well. Yes, she ultimately made the decision, but why? What did I do? What didn’t I do?

It’s in your best interest to make a decision with decisiveness. Obviously divorce will appear the more painful of the two. It’s the acute pain. I’m a bit frustrated with the idea that she’s treating you disrespectfully. Telling you she doesn’t want to see you hurt anymore? I see it as more like "When can I get this over with so I can get back to being with my girlfriend without feeling guilty, and getting the hell out of therapy."

Am I incorrect here? Is this the truth? I really don’t know, but it’s what I intuitively am picking up. Only she can answer this question now.

I don’t know either. I think at this point actions speak louder than words. She’s demonstrated on a number of occasions what her decision is.

I get the impression that this has nothing to do with you. If it did, she would have told you. While she wasn’t honest about the choices she made, she was honest when you asked her a direct question. I suspect then that she would be honest on this issue too if you ask her directly, if only because she has nothing to gain by telling a lie. If she was suppressing anything, it’s now come to the surface entirely.

Like I said, chances are, she was bisexual, never tasted Chocolate and wanted to know which side of the line she ultimately stands on. This has more to do with her own sexual orientation confusion, than you. However she disrespected you (Even if she did it out of fear of the consequence) — she still made that choice. And that’s her cross to carry, that’s her burden.

I say it all the time to people, but — what you fear, you create. What you fear you give birth to, you create the very events and circumstances which inevitably allow your fear to manifest in tangible form. I bet she was afraid of telling you and I bet she was afraid of the gay side of her orientation. Thus, the truth finally surfaced, and the fear came to life. She lied to you, because she probably didn’t want to lose you while she experimented. I bet she figured she could "test drive" this part of her orientation in secret, and find out what she really felt inside.
If you take this woman back, you are a complete fool.

I don’t mean to be a dick or harsh, but that is the truth. She’s walking all over you and using you and keeping you on the hook while she fucks around on you.

Like I said, if you take her back, you are a fool. And things will only get worse.

The truth is, you got married too soon. In the future you shouldn’t entertain the idea of getting married until you have a low spot in your relationship and recover from it and until you move in together first.
As for facing the idea of divorce, I point you to this thread where I talk about how to move on after a divorce:

I understand what you’re saying. Yes, I wholeheartedly believe we got married too soon, and I am beginning to feel like I am too young too. I’m almost certain now that divorce is immenent and now I’m just trying to find the balls to do something about it. This is quite honestly the hardest thing I’ve ever had to deal with in my entire life and I don’t really know how I’m doing it.

Usually when I have issues in my life I break down and get depressed, but somehow I’m able to look at this rationally and stay positive and keep thinking about how things will be after getting through it. Don’t know where it came from.

Thanks for the link to the advice about divorce, I’m sure it will come in handy and I’ll take some time to read it tonight.

I really do appreciate your guys’ input and letting me bitch.
I’m sorry, she doesn’t love you anymore. She isn’t attracted to you and doesn’t want to have sex with you. The fact that she was so open to being completely honest with you says that she doesn’t care about the marriage anymore and wants it overwith. Letting the person she cheated on you with move in with her was absurd. Could you imagine if it had been a guy and he’s the one moving in?

It doesn’t even matter if there’s someone else or not. She apparently doesn’t want you period. She was excited to be in a new relationship, a quick engagement and marriage, but you see the two of you reached a certain level of greatness in a heterosexual relationship and that’s when she realized "is that it?"

You have clearly been severely traumatized. Your positivity is kind of good but kind of not. I mean you don’t want these feelings to slowly be dissipated over many years. Try to break down and cry. The more emotions you let out the faster you’ll get over this.

I’ve come to realize that. She has remorse and is able to recognize that she’s fucked up big time, but she’s not doing anything about it. It’s strange for me to think about that, because if I had been in her shoes, and I had fucked up and had an affair, I would have recognized it and not continued to do it if I had been sorry and loved my wife the way that I do. It’s hard for me to understand the situation I’m in and it’s hard for me to explain the way that I think she’s feeling, because it’s not normal. Hence the counseling.

I’ve broken down several times over the last few days and cried, usually in the car while I’m driving, don’t really know why, but it seems I have a hard time showing those emotions to those closest to me. I’ve chatted with my parents about us looking into divorce and I sorta broke down, but didn’t cry much. The shock is over, and I’m now accepting the fact that we’ll get a divorce and the relationship is over, I’m just trying to prepare for the emotional stress and pain that I’ll have to endure in the coming weeks/months, or however long this takes.
You’re doing the right thing. Sorry I couldn’t be more concise as we walked through this process so far, but these situations are messy, emotions are messy, understanding it can be confusing and complicated — and that’s how they’re supposed to be. We find out what is reasonable, how we feel in response to the behavior of others who betray us. That’s directly from my counselors mouth.

For now, you do what you have to do, but then you it out when it comes, and then you do what you have to do again, and let it out when it comes. It’s really ok. Talk about it with those you respect, or us if you want. We’re here to help

I truely do appreciate the advice, opinions, and validation that you’ve given. I hope you know you’ve made a difference in how I’ve been able to handle this. It’s a bit easier when I talk it out (or type it out), now comes the doing…

I’m the same way. I need to bounce ideas off people, get outside points of view. Sometimes it’s useful and sometimes it’s not — but usually you can figure out who really knows what is true for you.
Lesbian or not: for me it would make no difference, if your wife told you she was falling in love with another man what would you do? there is no diff, good luck.
She’s a fucking dyke, leave her, be done with it. She fucked you over, became a lesbian. what a bitch.
She cheated on you and you are the one moving out.
Brav-fucking-O.

Easy there, Killer. Save the attitude for the main forum. In many cases this what ends up happening. My brother went through it. His cunt-faced ex wife started cheating on him after she got a hyterectomy. He was the one who had to move out even though she was the cheater, and then she let the house foreclose. In the meantime she used his business tax ID number on some of her bankruptcy documents. Long story short, he lost his home, his business and his kids (she decided discpline wasn’t an option and 2 of 3 of the kids are felons now).

Unfortunately the guy almost always end up getting screwed, even when he is the innocent one.

I am sorry but I am having some trouble with the part where she admitted to him she had sex and he went and stayed at the hotel.
I am sure he is leaving out the part where he got angry, screamed and waived his tiny fists around. But you know what? The BITCH CHEATED ON HIM. HE HAD EVERY RIGHT TO GET ANGRY, SCREAM AND WAIVE HIS TINY FISTS AROUND.

He had every right to have every piss poor reaction short of hitting her.

But our society is so emasculated, so feminized that as soon as the guy goes off the deep end – even when he has every right to do so – we treat the guy like he has committed some unforgivable sin.

Maybe she did this because she knew she could?

I know I am being ugly and mean, but sometimes the truth is just that.
The thing about this situation is he has the upper hand.
Oh he doesn’t know it.
But he does.

He is in that sort of situation where the first one to a lawyer wins.
He needs to get this thing under control. Get to a lawyer. Get this shit straightened out.

I feel the same way, in fact I would have felt better about it if it were a man. This is just inexcusable though.

Easy turbo. I moved out because I wanted to move out, not because I had to. We live in an apartment, an apartment I hate and planned on moving us out of within a couple of months. Then, this shit happened. So, I gladly moved out.

I realize I have the upper hand, but I’m not going for the jugular. I’m being the better person here and just cutting my losses before they get even bigger.

Tomorrow night bra. I’ll be driking till I can’t see anymore. Could REALLY use that drink now though….
Update time.

Last night I got drunk off my ass, it was good to relax a bit. And just so everyone knows, I don’t use alcohol as a crutch, just a once a week (maybe) thing to relax and let go.

We’re now officially getting divorced. This won’t be a messy divorce because we’ve already had the property set up as to who is who’s and it’s all mutual. No fighting over things, financially we both know who’s responsible for what, and there’s no children involved so that won’t be a factor.

This should be a clean divorce. It’s still hard to look back at how things were and think about how it’s just going to end. I’m again going back and forth from happy and okay, to depressed and sobbing my eyes out. I’m going to see a counselor next week to help me fully sort out my feelings, hopefully it will help.

You’re doing the right thing. This will all be history soon enough and more positive things will likely come into your life and take the place of what happened here.
You may think I am an asshole (God knows I have been playing the part the last 3 days) and I don’t have a point to make.
You would be wrong.

Here is the thing.

Your heart is in the right place.
Amicably split the stuff up, each of you move out, maybe exchange Christmas cards in 11 months.
But your logic is flawed.

Your logic is like, ‘Hey what do I need a lawyer or papers or anything else for. We both see eye to eye on this issue. What is the big deal? Besides it will just cost us money.’.

You need to go to a divorce attorney. You know, the first one to the attorney wins.
Anyways, tell him like it is.
Say to him that you guys know exactly what each one wants and you want it done and over.
Then tell him that you need protection. You need protection from her changing her mind in the future. God forbid she starts hanging out with these male-hating feminists and gets it into her head that she is owed something.

Go to the attorney not because you want to screw her now. Go there so she can’t screw you later.

Dig???

If she changes her mind and goes to an attorney in the future the only thing that is gonna count is stuff you put your signature on. She will own you.

Fact.

Exactly. This situation wouldn’t seem nearly as complicated if it was another man we were talking about. I’m sorry to hear about this, dude. This sounds like a very difficult situation for you, and she definitely misled you at some point along the way, and then she cheated on you, IMO.

Agreed. Finish the deal, and seal off any opportunities to get hurt financially in the future.

Thanks, it’s nice to have some support, friends and family are behind me, but even the added support of people I don’t even know helps. It’s difficult, but it will all clear itself up in the future.

I’m going to talk to a lawyer tomorrow and ask them about it. As I stated earlier, it’s a very mutual breakup and not bitter. We have no real marital assets, none that are worth fighting over, and I’ve agreed to support her for cost of rent in her current place, and nothing more. I will make sure to get that written in the divorce papers and not allow any future alterations.

Again, I appreciate the advice and support guys. I will need it in the future.
Wow, that must be a horrible feeling man; I’m sorry that you’ve had to deal with it. You seem like a nice guy, and sadly sometimes they do finish last my friend.

My advice is just like anyone else’s is going to be: Let it pass. With time, everything mends. I realize that you love her, shit you’ll love anyone if you spend that much time with them and let that "trust build".

Either she really is a lesbian, or she’s not. There’s only two real answers. Both reasons spark because of her insecurity. It also troubles me to learn the fact that her parents are very closed-minded; as that’s the bullshit that probably sparked this behavior (not being able to "explore" for herself at a young age, getting married young, etc.).

Either way buddy, she fucking cheated on you. While most OTers and idiots alike would be like "aww yeah get it on with both" etc., she was adulterous and that’s not how a wife treats her husband.

Fucking leave her, in a couple of years when you’re in love with a new gorgeous girl that respects you and herself, you’ll be thinking "WHEW, WTF WAS I THINKING? I could’ve fucked my life up there".

You’ll be fine buddy, trust me.
Thanks bro, I appreciate that. I know it will all be alright in the end, I’m already sort of getting passed it emotionally.

I went and saw my counselor last week and she said that I’ve been handling it very well and she doesn’t think there’s anything I need to improve on to get passed it. So I guess that’s a good thing to know.

She did have a troubled past and her parents were very closed off, in fact her counselor (also my counselor) says she thinks that’s where this is stemming from. She thinks that my wife is heterosexual, but because of her childhood, she’s very confused and troubled and needs to work things out for herself right now. Specifically she said that because she never had that close relationship with her mom she never completely made the transitional phase that most people make where they go from loving their friends of the same sex (always hanging out with girls, thinking boys are yucky, that kind of thing) to being sexually attracted to the opposite sex. I think that’s a very clear and acceptable explanation of what’s going on, which is why I’m not bitter about this.

I’ve chosen to have a clear head about this and to be there for her when she needs me, and be that friend that she needs in her life. If I can’t ber her husband, it’s okay, I can still be a friend to her.

Paperwork is currently in front of me for the divorce, it’s very clear cut and mutual so there is no fighting over possesions, debt repayments, or anything. It’ll be alright, just need to get through the next couple of weeks and things will be golden.

Exactly, I figured that shit out and I’m not even educated

Unfortunately, by the time that she does realize that she fucked up big time, it will be too late. DO NOT wait for her though, then it’ll just show her that she’ll always be able to fuck up and be in control of the relationship.

Move the fuck away from that closed-minded town (Utah I’m assuming), and find yourself a cute girl with some self esteem son
I went here because of your thread in the main forum.

The only thing I will add is a warning to not take her back when she inevitably comes to her senses enough to realize the mistake she made. Girl sounds like a basket case and you seem to have your shit together, and she would only keep dragging you down in the future.

Good advice, and you want to know the truth?

You will eventually get the desire to want to get back with her, no matter how shitty she treats/treated you. And the most likely time will be right after your future relationships end.

I went through it. It was hard not to want to give it a try, but I kept myself in check and didn’t proceed. As soon as the vulnerability wore off, I thanked my lucky stars that I didn’t start down that road again. Realize that you are separating for a reason.

that is so true. it might seem convenient to use an ex as a safety blanket. don’t do it.
Thanks for the advice guys, I know it’s not a good idea to hold out for her. I’m not planning on it. I know that we can still be good friends and I’ll still be there for her should she need me, but a future relationship, as you all said, would be a bad idea. I wish I could move away from this town, but right now I can’t afford it. I’m going to be staying with my parents and working two jobs to get rid of my debts. I hope to be out of debt by May. When that happens, I’ll move out again and start over.

Again, thanks for everything, I really do appreciate the advice.
Well here I am 2 months later now, the divorce still hasn’t happened yet but we are separated. She’s working on getting into the military which makes things harder for the divorce paperwork because there are two separate forms for military and non military spouses.

I’m really having a hard time right now. I just need to vent here and get it off of my chest.

I’ve been doing really well, been going out all the time with friends, keeping busy with work and just purchased a motorcycle to ride around on. Today, I think I cracked though. Something just snapped in my brain and I’m stuck at work, perpetually on the verge of tears and I don’t know what to do. I need to get out of here but I can’t, no one to cover for me and I’d probably get fired if I left.

I miss my wife badly right now. There’s a massive hole inside me right now and nothing can fill it. I am emotionally, physically, and mentally drained right now and I’ve only got a stressful day tomorrow on top of it. Things are getting so much worse and I don’t see the light at the end of the tunnel any more. I don’t know that I’ll ever be able to get back onto the preverbial market, I’m so hurt right now I can barely live with myself. I’m not suicidal but it’s hard for me to do anything relating to women now. I want so bad to move on and find someone else, but I can’t bring myself to do it yet.

I’m going to try to get in and see my counselor on Monday, but that’s a week away and I’m already having trouble getting through the days. I just don’t know what to do, I’m so lost right now.

Again sorry for the vent, just had to get it out.

All of this is exactly what happens when you grieve a loss. You’re going to be ok, but right now is a tough period. Call the counselor if you need to — they’ll talk by phone a little sometimes when you really need them. Mine will talk just about anytime.

Understand that what happened to you was painful, and it’s going to take awhile to heal. Other women and dating aren’t even something you need to think about right now. Bouncing around rebounding will only make you feel worse afterwards.

This too shall pass man, you’ll get through this.

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