Go see her all pumped up. She’ll be like hay baby

This is correct.

You have plans of your own but made the time and effort to come see her. Win.

I 2nd this.
From my experience with living with a basketball player, she’s going to be so in the moment of competing that if you do get her attention she’ll likely just slightly acknowledged you. You might not get a chance to talk to her at all. After the game is over the team will be together in the locker room or whatever for awhile and may hang out with each other. If you do go, just sit high up on the bleachers and enjoy the game, then you can say you watched the team play the next time you see her.
just go. Its really quite simple. if she’s into you, you’re golden.

no need to game it.
kinda interested in a girl, she’s kinda interest in me, she has a basketball game tonight, didn’t mention that i should go, but i’m thinking i really should. this is a no brainer, right?
sure, if you want to, minus whale go to the game and cheer her on..
come for the second half,… say you just finished meeting up with a few friends and thought you would stop by to see her in action.
Total no brainer.

Go see her all pumped up. She’ll be like hay baby

This is correct.

You have plans of your own but made the time and effort to come see her. Win.

I 2nd this.
From my experience with living with a basketball player, she’s going to be so in the moment of competing that if you do get her attention she’ll likely just slightly acknowledged you. You might not get a chance to talk to her at all. After the game is over the team will be together in the locker room or whatever for awhile and may hang out with each other. If you do go, just sit high up on the bleachers and enjoy the game, then you can say you watched the team play the next time you see her.
just go. Its really quite simple. if she’s into you, you’re golden.

no need to game it.

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I’m not feeling to good today, actually it’s my stress. I knew I was a stress case, but my MH doctor wrote a lot of things that she never told me about in my disability qualification letter. I wonder if she is hiding anything else from me? She knows that I’ve educated myself off and on in psychology for the last fifteen years. I think because of that she is not talking to me very much, except for how I’m feeling and if I’m taking my meds.

I’m really worried to death and it hurts my stomach when that happens. I know exactly what this stuff means in the letter, but maybe I’m reading to much into it? This is the letter that so wrote.

To Whom It My Concern:

This regarding Mr. ****** (DOB 10/21/67) who is a patient of mine at ****** for Mental Health. He has a diagnosis of Panic Disorder, Manic Depressive Disorder NOS and Attention Deficit Disorder by history. He has a long history anxiety, panic attacks, depressed mood, problems with attention concentration and short term memory. He has problems with poor impulse control, anger and difficulty maintaining interpersonal relationships. His situation is worsened by his chronic homelessness, poor financial situation and lack of occupational identity.

All these issues make it difficult for **** to work in a competitive labor market. They have plagued his his entire adult life and make it difficult for him to find and sustain employment, compelling him to apply for disability.

Man that’s a lot of stuff. What do you guys think about a letter like this?

What do you mean?

If you died, would you want the world calling it that shit?

Ten bucks is the only thing I’ve truely spent on myself for the past 5 years. I got the money from ads on a blog that it no longer.

Yep! 40 minutes left.
need more backround info.

are you really that homelessness have a poor financial situation ?

where are you posting from. etc..
Some libraries have 4 hour internet and others have only one.
damn i should do that, seems easier than working, broseph

I live off of $140 a month general assistance and that is all. With my car insurance, gas and a small fine. I have no money left. This is why I’m desserately appy for disability so I can have some stability in my life.

The process takes three years and is unbelieve the buerocracy that is involved. It’s not like the old days, you have to hire a lawyer and fight it in court.

this should be stickied for all non AV fags
jesus no wornder you only have 226 posts you muyst get bored of ot after like 10 seconds

I coudln’t afford to look for work if I wanted to. Think about it. gas is 3.50 and I only get $140 a month with bills to pay.

I don’t understand the comment, but yes I spend very little time online.
it will take a while but when you get ssi it will be retroactive.

you will get a big ass check to blow on drugs.
Dude, are you shitting us?

Thread about how to use Paypal.
Another thread talks about you possibly getting an STD after a long night of partying?

You are correct, but the drugs you are mistaken.

sell vehicle, ride bus. ???? profit. Then get a job.

That written to make a point that very few got here. I was psychoanalysing some of you.

How do we know you aren’t doing the same thing now?

I sleep in my car, and lets not get off track about the letter and my anxiety attacks and manic drepression etc.
San Jose, California… unemployed with $140 a month. Are you a mexican? Go hop on the back of some trucks…

Be cause I don’t plan on comming back to this forum. I’m going to forget forums altogether and get a basketball for the park.

wat

that sucks. how old are you?
BTW, there is no way in hell that the letter is real. There is a typo "is is"

You’re telling me that your doctor didn’t proof read it first?

yeah, hes bi-polar for sure.
How does that make you any different from the rest of people in California?

Yet you have a post that says you just purchased this?

That shit is like $70, brah.
I have pretty much the exact same diagnosis, yet I still work for a living
So how did you get to this point? What happened that got you from a functional member of society to applying for disability insurance?

You should be posting this in the Asylum forum, not the Main…more sympathetic audience imo.
Main forum –> Asylum

Asylum rules apply from here forward.

aawwww

weak
now that we are in the Asylum..

other than disability, has anyone mentioned a cure or some preventative meds?

like to stabilize you or something?

.

I think she’s accurately explaining in a conscise way what she’s observed during the appointments you’ve had. That is her job, to analyze you, and based on her experience.

Is anything she said untrue? I doesn’t look untrue to me, and in-fact that letter is fantastic in terms of applying for SSI. It’s a great letter for that purpose.

Just ignore him, he’s ignorant.

Absolutely agree, I went through the same thing. I was disabled in 2000, but didn’t receieve approval until 2004. So that’s 4 years I lived barely scrapping by.

Once he can afford healthcare through Medicare, he’ll likely improve substantially. He’ll have access to better counseling services, medications and doctors.
It’s also possible she’s trying to help you out and put a few extra things in there that could or could not be part of your problems. That way you have less problems continuing with SSI.
My question is, are you using this as a "get out of jail free card" or are you getting help to actually overcome all this stuff? I haven’t seen a single "problem" that cannot be cured or managed with medication and therapy. I mean really…. getting disability for panic attacks? I get anxious fairly often, but, I can still make it into work. Work actually helps me, because anxiety is only as powerful as you let it be. The more attention you give it, the worse it is. When I’m on break, if I feel anxious, I’ll go back to work and it’ll get better because my mind isn’t on it.
i suffer from anxiety and bipolar disorder. i would qualify for disability due to my inability to hold jobs because of my anxiety and bipolar disorder combined (going into depressive phases). so what did i do? i went on a new medicine. i seem to be a lot better now. try something new with the money you get from ssi.

With that logic it’s like a person like me telling you there is no such thing as panic attacks because I never in my life have had one.

What now?

There are millions of people who suffer with problems that a medication and counseling can’t help — in-fact medications are the 4th leading cause of death in the U.S. They save a lot of lives, but they take a lot too. And counseling while obviously helpful to millions is also unhelpful to many as well.

His situation isn’t your situation. He applied for disability and wrote about it on OT because it’s obviously more severe than your downregulated, short-sighted, minimized, condescending version of "panic attacks." (JMO)

I’m glad doing something helps you manage your panic problems, but psychiatric problems aren’t something you "think away, or wash away while cleaning a toilet." People can have infections and other diseases causing those attacks as well as other problems which certainly dissolves your quote of "anxiety is only as powerful as you let it be.", so it’s important to not minimize a case and show compassion and remain open minded.

This "We’re all capable/all powerful" thing isn’t truth. Reality is, people get sick with things they often can’t control, just as much as those they get sick with and could have prevented. It’s not my place to decide which is which.
IMO this should be deleted as I think it’s a hoax.

There are multiple typos in the "doctors" letter.
Well maybe they sent him a paper letter and he retyped it?

I dont remember asking you a god damn thing

that sounds very logical. like he was trying to transcibe it

This is the asylum not the main forum, it would be wise to change your attitude immediately.
Hey brother.. appeal this and hire a lawyer.

If you do a bit of research, you’ll find that most lose their first SSI attempts. This is common.

Why do you care?

By the way, sorry if I came off arrogant in my last response to you.

Is he going to read a post that says "Get a job" and then think "Great idea, why didn’t I think of that!" ??

Why ask him a question that you know he can’t answer, since he obviously isn’t "him." We try to offer advice and suggestions, but only the person asking can "fix" their problem. The Asylum is meant to help people fix their own problems or at least point them in a direction that can help lead them to someone more experienced/trained that can offer counsel.

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I go to the same club every saturday, it’s free and I know a lot of people. Me and a friend of mine are basically the dancers in the place. Not hired, not "technically", but….we dance. A lot. No BBAy, just hip-hop. I live in Atlanta, so do the math. The clubs we go to have stages. One upstairs has a big stage, down has 2 small side stages.

I’m white, he is black. This isn’t exactly important but….we gel together well and bounce off each other. I draw the most attention because…well…i’m white and know how to dance. I’m also 6’5" 190 so that helps.

The past few weeks i’ve been adding to my "skill set" and have gotten bigger and bigger crowds of people watching me and my friend dance. My issue is that I will notice, and spot, women staring all night and I won’t bother to approach and say anything.

Now, naturally, I am:

Short Tempered
Angry
Reserved/Slightly Shy

I am going through some anger management right now. Working on my temper. Like a waitress at my job said "I think you mean well and have a good heart, honestly….but you just suck at controlling yourself." She is right, to a T. Someone pushes me, i’m punching them. Someone talks shit to me, i’m punching them. My point is that for all the attention given to me, it should be easy for me to break this horrid 4 month sexless drought i’ve been in. I’ve considered contacting 2 of my previous fuck buddies, but I can’t bring myself to it. I find it so much easier to meet women when I end droughts, but right now, it’s the hardest drought ever.

Right now, I don’t want to find a date in a club. I just want to fuck. I’ve hit a wall. I don’t understand how I can stand in front of 30-40 people watching me dance while more then half are females, some waving and what not, and I won’t do a damn thing. If they come up on stage or stop me when I walk by, i’m fine. Over the last month i’ve gotten 3 numbers, I was just stood up each time.

I don’t really know what to expect from this forum as I don’t post here, but i’m not going to look for some PUA garbage on the internet. Honestly, I think this is more to do with my anger management than anything. Ever since i’ve taken a strong approach to controlling myself better 2 months ago, I’ve found it unbelievably difficult to be out going with people I don’t know unless you approach me. Before, I found myself more out going.

I’m lost.

Seriously. Thinking of this makes me angry and as I tell my friends, puts me into "beast mode" where I just want to look for a fight. I already expect to go into work @ 6PM tomorrow angry just by thinking about how I suck at approaching, or lack thereof, women.

Knowing how to deal with Anger and Girls are basically 2 different issues, and getting them under control is basically an art in its own.

You need to re-direct the anger into doing constructive things. Consider anger as extra energy that needs to be released. Hit the gym, go jogging,play golf or tennis so that you release that extra amount of steam
that you have stored inside of yourself. That way you build up muscle and release excessive anger while your at it.

When it comes to girls, dont go with them just for sex, although i understand you, i know that doing that stuff will just bite you back in the end. I firmly believe that you shouldnt play with human lives like that. Act like a man and be serious about what you do. Go with a woman for a serious relationship.

In terms of approuching them, stop thinking (what if this or that happens that will ruin it) , think like this

Its a win win situation, if you ask a girl out and she says no, then you can never blame yourself for not trying, if you ask her out and she says yes, then you ve got a date. Fear just imprisons you, and that causes the frustration that makes you angry.

I mean look at it, you fear to get rejected, as a result you dont get a date, and as a result of that you get angry. All this stuff is connected, so the moment you stop your fears, is also the moment you can stop your anger.

The best way to do this is the following, you know many people think too much when it comes to asking girls out. Just put your mind on zero and go for it.
I suck at giving advice but I just wanted to tell you something so hopefully you try to focus on the good side of things instead of on the bad side, because that’s all you’re doing.

Feel fortunate you have an ability to dance and draw attention, especially from women, and feel fortunate you know they stare. Feel fortunate that the waitress could see past everything and know you’re a good person. Not a lot of people nowadays have that ability.

Some people, like me, can’t attract anyone for shit and have no visible talents, and nobody appreciates whatever you have going on. And that, my friend, is what really sucks. Eight months without sex here.

I got a gym membership 2 weeks ago. Ive been wanting to gain weight and I also figured I would use it as some anger management control. I took 3 days off to let my body rest and heal, but thus far the management side and releasing stress and anger is slow.

I’ve basically hit a mental block period with PEOPLE in general. So when it comes to females, it’s 5 times worse.

I had my hopes set high for a blog, have a .com, OT Sports crew enjoyed reading it, traffic was slowly increasing.

Then I got really sick, a nasty sinus infection and I put it on the back burner until I got 100% so I could rest and relax and not sit on my computer all day typing.

The problem ever since i’ve gotten better is i’ve hit that mental block. Or, writers block. I havent logged into my site in ages because I can’t think of what to write. I can sit on OT and go off on a whim, but when it comes to jotting down subjects to type about for my blog I hit a road block.

My point….is it sucks.

I went on a date with a 39 year old, i’m 24. I figured I didn’t have much of a chance (this was a month ago) for a 2nd or 3rd date because of the age gap and I was right. The thing I took out of it was that I knocked the rust off as I havent been on a meaningful date in like 6…7 months prior. But, a week later, once again, mental block.

The sad part is it’s getting so bad i’m getting to the point of drinking alcohol more often then not, even at work, just so I can be more sociable with customers when i’m behind the bar (bar back, not a bartender). The only places I am in my groove where I can open freely seems to be a basketball court and a bar during a football game when everyone has the same agenda…to watch the game and meet people.

I’m brutally honest with people, there isn’t a lot of sugar coating going on when I talk to someone. But when I leave work or my house or a friends house and go to a bar, a club, the mall….I can see a girl, know what I want to do or say, not feel nervous, as I walk over i’ll forget shit. And even if I open my mouth and get 3 sentances out, i’m back to square one in 2 minutes as I hit a mental block of what I wanted to say and then it all comes back to me 2 minutes after I ran her off with silence. This happened on St. Pattys day, had a girl all over me but my mental blocks killed any chances of anything happening and I went home alone.
Not to be a dick but you only have one simple problem – although the solution is not at all easy or simple.

You are a slave because you can’t control yourself. I’m not going to sugar coat it with BS like "anger management", what you need to do is to control yourself. In the end, that is the only control any of us have and being a slave to yourself means that you are also a slave to others because it is extremely easy to control someone who cannot control him or herself.

Again, I’m not trying to be a dick or to shrug off your problems and concerns but this is the way I see.

I know I need to control myself, but trust me, people don’t control me. People at my work fear me. People at my school won’t even attempt to.

Small example:

I tell my boss i’m not happy with him scheduling me 3 days, I tell him if happens again im done working there. He says "fuck josh, i’ll give you what you want, 5 days? fine, just don’t shoot me."

Like I said, I couldn’t tell you the last time someone "controlled" me. It’s not because i’m afraid to see the truth, but because people know my mindset and I have the label of being a fighter in my group of friends.

When I enter my club, they will ask me "no fights today, ok?"

I hate it. But like you said, I can’t control myself. And I don’t know how to control myself.
i feel you on the no pua deal

my advice would be to stop masturbating

if you see women as your sole sexual outlet, everything should take care of itself

i used to have a horrible temper like you when i was younger btw

you can control yourself. you are choosing not to.
If you just want bedroom action from women, you already know what to do. I flipped out earlier this week, then went out with a buddy and I was back on the horse.

When I go into the spot, I always have approach anxiety on the first one. Then I flip the switch, and I talk to every woman I see and just run game on them. Just say whatever the fuck you want, whatever is on your mind. Don’t run the shitty, tired routines. Look at them in the eyes, realizing that you are about to give them the best viking fucking of their life. Get yourself thinking that you’re unstoppable. You can cut out at any time, just walk off.

You’re a fucking dancer. You have the moves to sweep the women up, so use it. Take control and own the room. Don’t do the PUA crap if that’s not you. Its not me, I just talked about what I wanted to on saturday night to 9 sets of women and went home with 4 numbers. I ejected early on every one because I’m not comfortable having sex today, maybe in a few days I’ll scoop one up and take her back to the house. You’re in control of everything you do with women once you harness what you already have, and use it.

good points.

I suck at PUA routines. I’ve tried them, i’ve spent hours reading up on them, doesn’t fit my personality. IMHO, PUA are general liars and bullshitters. I don’t know PUA and I make it a goal to not become friends or associates with them. I’m just to honest and up front to bullshit people.

I’m like you, I talk about whatever I want to talk about, I just change it up a bit with women.

Thing i’ve been working on is being more aggressive at bars and clubs with women. Instead of asking about what they are doing in a week, I ask what they are doing when they leave the club. I used to think that it came off stalkerish/scum baggish like, but I haven’t had any problems thus far. Just being stood up, but they don’t come off freaked out.

#1, I won’t stop masturbating. Not yet.

#2, i’m sure I can control myself. I just feel like it’s chemical related in my head. I don’t take meds, I don’t want to take meds. But even when I start to get pissed off about something and I start to talk myself out of getting pissed off or why I should calm down…I continue to get pissed off. If not double pissed off just because i’m trying to calm myself down. My friends know not to calm me down, it just pisses me off even more. And it always has a chemical/mindfuck feeling to it.

When I fight, I get tunnel vision. So,

this has been a good week as far as controlling my temper goes.

The problem is for every 2….3 good weeks I have of controlling myself, I run into a problem one night on the town, a fight, altercation, something….that sets me back 6 weeks.
I wish I had opportunities to meet women. All I ever do is go to school (tech school with like 95-98% male enrollment) and work. Plus I live in the middle of nowhere so its not like theres any big bars or clubs around

that must really suck. I need the big city.

You have to psych yourself up. If you can own the room, realize it, then its already been communicated, and you can stop asking women for phone numbers and dates, and start telling them.

We’re all liars and bullshitters, PUA guys are just fucking losers who need to find hobbies. However, you can learn from them. Imagine if you had the skills they do, and a real personality to go behind it.

Yea, thanks. That’s why I asked, maybe to have someone re-enforce this shit into my head. Like saturday I went to the club alone because all my friends pulled out and want to wait for my BDay Saturday. I considered leaving but I told myself I’ve been becoming to co-dependent. I won’t go to the club unless a friend is with me. so I went inside, and then by the 3rd song, sober….danced. Had a group of really ugly women never leave me alone, 2 ugly black women…never leave me alone…and some guy buy me a drink.

I hope this is a sign that I got the ugly women out of the way for my birthday party.

Either way, I do need to remember that I basically run the entire dance floor when I go to clubs. Even if I go to larger black dominant clubs, I run shit. I just need to stop being shy and go after females I see constantly staring.

I’m not one to diagnose myself, but from reading up on Bipolar definitions and cases on the internet, I don’t have it. I’ve also never seen a doctor. But I just don’t carry the normal bipolar tendencies. I think i’m more hateful than Bipolar people are.

It sounds to me like you’re overreacting to the possibility of being controlled by other people. Your boss tells you you’re only working 3 days and you want to work 5 days, that’s control — or rather, it could be percieved as control. I would say it is, since technically he gets to decide whether you work or not.

So I would suggest two things: 1) figure out who "the man" is that originally held you down, and deal with them directly instead of taking it out on everyone else, and 2) accept that you are one of 6 billion people and every single one of them has the capacity to end your life if they see fit, and try to keep them from wanting to do it.

Meh, i’ve been at my job for over a year. He gave newer people that work slower than me 4 days. I told him the last time that happened I quit, but an ex-manager convinced me to come back. I told him that if it happened again I will quit again, the only difference is I won’t come back.

He gave me 4 days this week, I also requested 4 days off, but he made me work saturday. I even told him this week is the exception to the rule because its my birthday weekend.

I’d venture to say finding some "ultimate" guy who has "held me down" will take years of therapy because there is no possible way I can think of some shit like that on my own while posting on OT.
Your description of your temper is exactly like mine is (especially the tunnel vision).

I learned to control it. I have never had to take any medication.

You say you won’t stop masturbating. Why? Its not forever. Try it for a week or so. You can always start right up again.

If you aren’t horny, you are less apt to approach chicks. Its that simple.

Good point. I’ll give it a shot this week considering my birthday party is on saturday and i’m going to get pretty shit faced. at the damned bare minimum i need to walk out with some numbers to show some progress.

my temper is better now than it was 2 years ago. it’s better now than it was just ONE year ago.

Like I said, the problem is i’ve fallen back on my anger and temper so much that when I go a few weeks without any issues, I run into that one day where something happens and the "2 steps forward, 3 steps back" saying comes into play. Or whatever the correct saying is. It happened to me about 2 weeks ago. Everything was fine, and then I was grumpy, angry, short tempered, and snapping on people at work. Ever since then, i’m fine. But I fall back on my anger/whiny brashness still too often.
I found a good way to cope with it.

Why do men get nervous around woman they want to have sex with? The reason is they CARE about what the woman will say and how she will react to him.

Instead of going to a woman with the idea of ‘i want sex and dating her’ simply stop caring about wether you will succeed or not having a date with her, if the pressure is gone you’ve got nothing to lose afteral. That way you show you have a life of your own to live, which is a bonus attraction for woman.

Honestly stop caring what woman will think of your reaction, just talk to them to have a great time. Talking was never meant as a form of torture.

It might sound silly but if you have Winamp, just listen to the Comedy Channels for 1 hour each day, you laugh a lot and you’ll see how wonderfull talking and humor is to have a great time. That way you wont have a mental block and actually can have a lot of fun while talking to woman,just for a laugh

good solid points all around. when i get back from the mall tonight i will substitute some comedy channels from shoutcast for game sound from the 360.

mod edit: trust me i know what i am saying
Most people are too lazy to control their temper because of their upbringing. Noone encouraged them to not act out….so they learned early on that if you act out, you get some pay off.

It’s very similar to monkeys, lions, bears and any other wild animal. If they get away with a behavior long enough, no matter how destructive, it becomes a habit.

Old habits are hard to break…..especially alone because it’s so easy to break a commitment to ourselves…..afterall, we’re the ones that made the commitment so why can’t we break it when we want to? This is why so many people break their New Years resolutions.

Character building exercises and imposing discipline on ourselves usually always feels like punishment. However, IMO this is caused by a simple lack of motivation to change.

Anthony Robbins has an excellent program for pushing us to change in ways we never thought possible. He also provides motivation for these changes and helps us help ourselves. You can find his books and tape programs at most public libraries.

If you want to stop acting out in anger, you must learn new ways to deal with stress. You must learn new ways of interacting with people and you must learn new ways to deal with set backs in life. Guess what slick….we all have to do this.

However, most people would rather bitch on this forum about how anger and life are so uncontrollable and they just can’t help themselves. Now that I’ve given you suggestions to follow, the question is, will you continue to bitch or will you go out and find solutions to your issues?

Me personally, I give no value to bitchers, whiners or complainers. I’m not perfect….hell far from it. I’ve had to bust my ass to overcome my drinking problems and all sorts of other shit….but I wanted a different life and I’ve created that. So I know it’s possible….if one is properly motivated.

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the deal is, i am a big time soccer player. BIG time. i spend all of my free time almost doing that and im very dedicated, at the age of 16 i have a few college offers so far and play on a very good team and am the captain. today was the first day i got to go outside and shoot around in my home town, we have had tournys in warm places earlier this year though. today i went out with some friends and shot around and i just did horrible. I could shoot anything in the back of the net like usual…now im driving down to practice tomorrow and im sure ill play fine like i usually do being a center mid with my passing and such being great, but my shooting was horrible today. usually it isnt this bad but i just could get the hang of it. now usually these things dont bother me but i just feel like i need to vent. I feel a need to go out and redeem myself for shooting how i did cause i know i can do better..i hope it was just a case of being outside for the first time in a while but i need a confidence booster or something…

i guess i am looking for suggestions on how to keep my mind on the bright side and be able to say to myself, hey just cause i did bad today wont mean ill do bad tomorrow, cause im usually not like this..i just dont want it to become a habit
first time outside??? all we have is soccerr outside here, you play indoors?
yea during the winter…still snow on the ground in wisconsin

ahhh I see.

Well I play basketball and if I am having a shitty day shooting or playing overall the next day I ball my ass off and just forget about it.
Just work thru it and understand that you’ll have ups and downs. No sense in being too down about it. Just keep practicing and if you have natural talent it will shine thru with all the practice.

First of all, post count doesn’t matter here. So don’t sweat it.

Dude, eat a sandwich and go to bed. You’ll be fine in the morning. I totally know what you’re talking about. I was a ballerina growing up- between classes and practice, I was dancing 4 hours a day, 6 days a week. Some days you’re amazing and the next day, you feel like you couldn’t land a decent turn if your life depended on it. Just relax, get a good night’s sleep and forget about it. You’ll be back to your normal self tomorrow.

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good luck moving forward
Elaborate on the affection issue and you both being in denial.

I know how you feel man. I was in the same situation (4.5 years for us too) about 2.5 years ago. It wasnt a messy break up for me and the ex either, but dont tell yourself it doesnt hurt just because it was a ‘clean break’. I’m not saying you’re doing this right now, but sometimes its easy to say "well, there was no cheating/lying/huge issue so I cant really be upset." Bullshit, be upset if you need to be and greive, fuck, you spent a long time together, but remember that you have to move past that eventually too. You’re doing the right thing by trying to stay positive, just keep that in mind when the times get rough (sometimes I think a few weeks after the break up is harder than the time right after it…).

She wasn’t a hugger or a kisser, not really a "rubber", didn’t like to cuddle much because i made her "hot" (I’ve very warm natured). The only thing she really liked was for her hand to be held. I’m touchy. I’d kiss the back of her neck just because I passed her, I’d brush her shoulder with my hands, hold her by her hips, etc. No one in her family is affectionate either. I like to be touched. It makes me feel cared for/loved.

As far as being in denial, we both kind of covered up that we were unhappy. No one wanted to admit it, but then we moved in together and it really became apparent. Didn’t want to help eachother out, I was always going to do my own thing, she did hers. I thought I was willing to overlook things about her that irritated me, but it got worse and worse. The worse it got, the more I tried to compensate.

She’s a great girl. I want to see her happy and successful and she wants the same for me. We just finally said it to eachother that we wanted different things.

I’m 26, she’s 31.

you’re right. and i’m dreading it horribly.

But at least you know its coming, so you can do something about it. If you just need to chill out now, do it, but in ~2 weeks, you should plan to be doing something. Have a party, go to the zoo, get tickets to a game, join a knitting circle – anything! I dont think it’ll make it compleately go away, but it’ll probably help. I really wish I had done this, but instead I was moving back in with my parents and had no job…..it just made it all suck a little bit more.
Keep busy, like everyone says. It has always helped me during breakups. Like Elphaba says plan a party or something a couple of weeks out so you have something to look forward to. Or take up a new hobby..join a soccer team or something just so you have scheduled things to do.

i’m going to spend MUCH more time on my photography. I race bicycles and that takes up a ton of time. You’re both right though, I gotta plan something…
Fuck. I’m lonely. Kinda just hit me I won’t talk to her on a daily basis anymore. I used to call her, chit chat, we’d go out to lunch…but not anymore.
I know exactly how you feel. Got out of a 4 year relationship about a year ago. My best advice for you is to not to rush the whole "friendship" thing.
Glad it was a civil, mutual breakup. I had one of those once and it was really nice just because it was solely a rebuilding process of my life…not a big old emotional mess as much; I was more positive and we ended up being friends later.

Just realize it will take a while to not feel lonely at night or learn to do things for yourself, etc.

fuck man I had the same wall happen today. been 2 weeks exactly. down to the hour prolly. it’ll pass. the memories are there just gotta find the right ones for your emotional need…

I think thats a big part of what I was trying to say. If you have something to look forward to…you’re moving forward! Even if its just a nice dinner out with friends or treating yourself to a new pair of shoes (ok, so since you’re a guy that might be different, but you get the idea)

I won’t. She probably won’t either. I’m sure we both know it’s not going to help, at all, at this point anyway. We spoke last night and we both wish there was some way to stay together, but there’s really no reason. Our lives are so intertwined, we have the same friends and her family is like my family. We both race bicycles and it’s inevitable that we’ll run into eachother over and over.

Honestly, I wish she was being a total bitch about this because it would make it so much easier to hate her. But, she’s not. Neither of us is being an asshole. There’s no reason for that. You’re right, I have a lot of rebuilding to do. I want her to be successful and it upsets me to know I won’t be there to see it and tell her I’m proud of her. We’ve changed eachother an incredible amount. She’s made me 100x stronger than I ever thought I’d be. She says she would have never gone back to school without my encouragement. She’s a very talented writer. She has incredible perception and a beautiful way with words.

As far as being lonely, I’ve been lonely for a few months now. Void of emotion and compainionship. I thought that was hard, but this is waaaaaaay more difficult. We talked/cried last night over the phone and tried to see a way to make things work, but I really don’t see it happening. My emotions say "yes" my gut says "no." There’s a Tool song that describes this so perfectly:

"I am too connected to you to
Slip away, to fade away.
Days away I still feel you
Touching me, changing me,
And considerately killing me."

I feel emotionally, spiritually, grammatically ( wtf, ), connected to her. But it was killing me to be close to her because I know she wasn’t "close" to me.

The entire song "Schism" fits too:

I know the pieces fit cuz I watched them fall away
Mildewed and smoldering. Fundamental differing.
Pure intention juxtaposed will set two lovers souls in motion
Disintegrating as it goes testing our communication
The light that fueled our fire then has burned a hole between us so
We cannot see to reach an end crippling our communication.

There are fundamental things between us that we will never agree on. I know that, she knows that. It’s hard as fuck not to let emotions overrun the truth and stick to my guns. I’ve got to get more stuff out this weekend, so I’m obviously going to see her and I just want to hug her one more time and run my fingers through her hair and kiss her forehead. I do care for her deeply. It’s going to be extremely difficult to walk away.

Went out with some friends last night and we’re going to see a Nashville Predators game and probably go to a strip club. I don’t care for the clubs much, but it’s just time with the guys. That’s something I’m really looking forward to.

I went back to my parents’ house last night and the first thing I saw was a picture of the both of us during a vacation…We were so happy… I saved up during an entire summer and took us to Seattle and Vancouver. It was a great trip.
I was involved with my ex-husband for 10 yrs (married for 7 of them). We had the same problem, I was the affectionate one and he was not. This was one of the biggest reasons our marriage failed because I didn’t "feel" like he loved me and when he said he did it had no meaning to me because his actions did not show it.

When we decided to get a divorce (non-contested), it was like a hugh burden lifted off my shoulders in the beginning. You know it was really hard at first to get used to not having him around…actually I think the first thing I did was run through my apartment and turn every light on (because he used to hate that). After about two weeks, I realized that what I really missed was the "habit" of having him there. We did have some good times in the beginning of our relationship and these are the memories that I share with our kid’s, however, there was more bad then good. It took a few months for me to evaluate myself and examine my 10 yr relationship. What actually helped me was I made a list of the things that I really liked and dislike about myself, him, and our relationship. Then I figured out what I would and would not tolerate in a relationship and set boundaries for myself. Doing this kept me pretty busy in my spare time and I started to miss him a little less everyday.

However, this actually helped me too, because I have since stuck to my boundaries and did not bend on any of my standards. Three years after my divorce I ran into the most incredible guy I have ever known. He meets all my standards and I have met all of his. I could not be happier.

All I can say is now is the time for you to work on "you". Who you are and what type of SO you "need/want" in your life. In the mean time date a lot and , as others have said, keep yourself busy. The loneliness will fade in time, especially when you can learn to truly be happy with and by yourself.

You’ve got to put every picture and everything from her, etc. away and out of sight for a while until you’re over it.

Funny that you say this, as I was just making a mental list of what did not work in our relationship. Those were the fundamentals that would eventually blow out the candle. We’re compatible about 90%, but those other 10% of things were the things that weighed the most. It’s a hard motherfucking fact of life. But, one that I just didn’t want to face. Now I just have to get in front of it.

I know. I saved every letter or note she ever gave me. No matter how small. I’m really that sentimental.

I’m the same way. I have every movie ticket stub my SO and I have ever seen amongst other stuff. We actually had a major thread a few weeks ago about keeping momentos from your ex’s. You should come over to the Vag

Hey man, I been reading the thread but neglecting to say things cause how sensitive of a subject it is. Just hang in there, pound back a few drinks with the guys, and keep on keepin’.. Sooner or later you’re going to realize it isn’t that bad.

going to the Vag, brblol!

edit:
link to thread?

I wish it was later already. I’m one impatient motherfucker. I gotta work on that.

Haha, yeah, the speed the clock moves doesn’t do much when you’re ready to "go".

Hang in there, man.

Well, since you’ve saved them, they should be all nice and organized so it’ll be easy to put them all in a box and put that box in the attic/top of the closet/where you wont see it and cant easily take it out to reminisce. Like Beer said, you’ve got to get it all out of sight. Eventually, you’ll forget the box is there and one day wayyyyyy down the road when you’re ready, you’ll go back through it, remember the fond times once again, then get rid of it for good.

It took me a LOOONNNGG time to get rid of some things from my most-recent ex. Even after all the letters and stuff were gone, I still had a few ‘things’ hanging around in my stuff. I came across the last of it when packing to move this past summer so I mailed the necklace he had given me back to him (it was his moms, so I figured he would want it) and threw his sweatshirt out (I wouldve donated it, but I figure the karma might’ve traveled with it and it was so ratty no one wouldve wanted it anyway ) . It felt really good to finially know it was all gone.
Ugh. I feel physically ill right now. I don’t want to eat or work. I just want to sleep and listen to music. Talking is good, but just get so god damn emotional. Gonna see her tonight after work and talk.

And you know why.

I gotta get stuff…seriously…

Then make it quick mister!

it’ll be like this: with a in between.

Well, as long as its not a with a ,or a ,or a or even a or a in between, I’d say you’re in good shape. Just remember you can always go home and

I love smilies . Seriously though, you’ll be fine, just re-read all the reasons you posted in this thread that you’re not together before you go….

@ smilies.

I’ve been rolling around the scenarios in my head today of what might happen when I go back. I’d be shocked if she came on to me. However, she’s taking it much harder than I am and that Cptn Save-a-Hoe switch clicks on in my head when she gets upset, just habit. I want to make it all better. BUT, i KNOW i can’t do that, not this time. I’m not cold-hearted, I’m just trying to be realistic and I know that it’s not going to work.

On a sidenote, i probably will go home and

Mine spoke to me for about 4 seconds today. we’re going to be talking next week at some point. I have yet to give her a day. . . .

Thanks I needed a good laugh

I’m trying to get out ASAP. I can’t keep going back to get more and more shit. I’ll be basically completely moved out after this weekend. We’ve texted a few times today, but have yet to speak today. It just feels so wierd. I want to ask her about her day and have our normal chit-chat, but I’m not going it. The routine is over and that’s what’s so uncomfortable.

aww.. dude…. I remember when I got my stuff back from my ex. My sweatshirt smelled liked her. That was a fun night of

I know exactly the emotion you’re having there. its a bubble thats gona build and build. at some point it either pops… or the day ends
i could give you my number, you could txt me about me day that’ll prevent your bubble from popping…
So…how did it go?
I never had that last "getting all my stuff day" with my ex, I just packed up and moved back home (300miles) and never really saw him again, so I dont know how its supposed to go, but I’m interested to hear…

It was good to talk to her. It didn’t make things any easier. She seemed kind of angry until the subject became her instead of me. Then she just lost it and cried like I’ve never seen her cry. It was SO hard to not hold and kiss her, and assure her that things are going to be all right. She feels like she has failed me, I feel like I have failed her. Out of 4.5 years, I think we were on the same page for 2 of them. The past year has been the hardest. I never realized how angry it made me when she tried to control what I did. I’m not an "open book" and I finally let a lot of stuff out and she jest kept saying, "Why didn’t you just tell me before?" I have trouble identifying how I feel sometimes, especially when things are personal and emotional. It’s like I can’t think clearly. I asked for my matresses back and felt like a total dickhead. But I have nowhere to sleep. We both love movies, so I told her to take which ever ones she wanted. For the first time in at least a year, she was actually folding my laundry. It’s not that I expected that of her, it’s just that she never did it. I did it for her all the time. It was just kind of metaphoric. In a way I feel like we never had a fair shot. It’s was a struggle from day 1 and I guess part of me really wants to break free while another really wants to fight it out. She’s the most determined person I’ve ever known. She’s a fighter through and through. I admire and repect the hell out of her.

excuse me while i jump off an emotional cliff.

in for pm
i’m in kind of a denial phase where i still feel like it’s gonna work out…I guess it’s an emotional hideout that I’ve been going to for a while. I’ve just never dealt with a lot of personal feelings because I was so worried about hers.

It sounds like it went as well as can be expected, right? Remember, hindsight is always 20/20 – yes, its a cliche, but its so much easier to see what couldve been done better in the relationship when youre not in it anymore. It doesnt, however, mean that you should get back together….

A personal note: The last week my ex and I spent together was probably the best we had in the year up to that. See, after we broke up…I couldnt get someone to come get me/my stuff and help me move till the following weekend, and he had to find a new place, so we were kinda stuck together for the next week. It was the week between spring/summer semester for him and was only working part time, and I had lost my job 2 weeks prior, so we ended up having alot of time to hang out that week. It was totally weird to still be sleeping in the same bed as someone a week after we broke up, and actually having a good time with them for the first time in a long while because we didnt have the stress of our relationship hanging in the air… Still, when the time came, we both packed up and left because it was the best thing to do…
I really want to get laid right now.

Wierd, because this is completely out of character for me. I never drink heavily, I’m not the type to sleep around…I’m 26, only had sex with 4 people for fuck’s sake. I feel like such a trainwreck.

you’re right. But when you can truly identify the problem, it makes you believe it can be properly fixed. Like this time’s gonna be any different. That’s the hard part. I always want things to be perfect.
That’s life my friend; you will get through it, next time remember you can never rely on someone else for the interest/warmth and time you need to be providing yourself.

i was there. right now, I dont want it to work out even if it could. if we could manage now, it wouldn’t be real… ya know?

You will come outta your hide-out soon enough. i’m peeking out. Ya GOTS to deal with um.
I wouldn’t be so quick to leave and move on like this…. maybe you’re in denial about the wrong thing

such as?
Just spoke to my sister. She really put it in perspective for me. She asked…"If you had the opportunity to move elsewhere for your career and you stayed because of her, would you resent her?" I said, "Yeah.." She said, "Well, there’s your answer. You shouldn’t have to resent her." Talk about bringing it home.

Thats a good sister you’ve got.
That’s great advise and something to keep yourself thinking about.
I’m sorry man but things will be better. Was in a 6 year relationship myself over a year ago and it was very hard on me. But I guess you live and learn as time goes by. At least you two were very mature and mutual about it. I have had 2 jobs since we broke up, just to keep my mind busy. Always try to stay active and try not to communicate with her for at least a year. Easier said than done but you’ll be fine if you do that much

it’s so hard not to communicate with her. we’ve communicated one way or another every day since.

STOP! i know its hard but you’re not really letting go of the urges that are building in you…
Okay, 1 week update:

We’ve been chatting off and on. Since there is no pressure of being in a relationship, we’ve discussed some personal issues and it’s been good to let it all out without fear of hurting someone. Moving stuff out is a chore. I feel better than I did a week ago, much less emotional. I’m more optimistic about the future and I’m kind of excited to date again. However, the flip side of that is I know for a while I’m going to compare everyone to her, in my mind. The next person, and it’s gonna be a while before I date, will have some mighty big shoes to fill. My expectation levels are higher and I know I’m not going to just settle. I’m slowly making a list of things I will not tolerate from a girlfriend and I plan on sticking to that list.

Bravo Just keep coming back to this thread and post up and let us know how you’re doing

It sucks to break up with someone after so many years, I had to break up with my ex-also-son’s-father after 6 years which complicates the situation even more But the 2 ground rules I have if I even think of getting back together with him or talking to him are:

1) Remember why you broke up in the first place. (I made a bulleted list of all the wrongs he has done me and my son, and keep a copy everywhere so if I have a weak moment [since he still takes every opportunity to beg for me back] I refer to that list and that moment is over.

2) Keep yourself busy. Me, I post on OT among other boards and help my son out on his basketball team and am planning lots of nice vacations for us this year to get away. Plus I am on expert level on the drums on Rock Band for Xbox360 And I also do websites and proposals, etc for friends for extra money on the side. And taking bartender classes (in a mini coop sittin on dubs…I’m just keeping it reallllll ) but yeah, go out there and do whatever it was you wanted to do for fun or take a college class or art class or something

and most of all, time heals all. It won’t be overnight, but you’ll get over her and meet someone even better (hopefully while you’re out rock climbing or working out at the gym or volunteering at the shelter or whatever it is you choose to do to fill your time)
Let it out before it fucks you up, you CANT stay postive. You need to vent, rebuild and move on.

I am. But I take out my frustration in a postive way. I’m thrashing my legs weekly on my bicycle. Don’t get me wrong, I’m still emotionally unstable, but it’s getting better. But I have noticed that, if I can’t ride I get REALLY frustrated. Lately, it takes nothing to set me off in a frenzy of swearing.
uhhhhhhhhh 2 weeks.

I’m not as upset as I thought I would be at this point. All the schedule juggling sucks because I moved back home for a few weeks. My routine got fucked up, and I operate on a schedule every single day. So, most days I can’t really pull it together first thing like I used to. Everything is in limbo. My job is possibly jeopordized (company was bought out) and I’m waiting to see if I keep my position with the new owners. So, I’m anxious everyday. It’s not as hard seeing her anymore. We’ve spoken less over the past week than the week prior. So, I’m beginning to feel the distance. It’s so strange really. Being so close to someone for that long and now…nothing.
Okay, for some reason I thought I might be on the fasttrack to recovery here, but no. I’ve been waiting on this to happen, but I REALLY miss her now. God damnit, it’s been ~3 weeks and it’s really hitting home. I saw her yesterday, I had to pick up stuff, she was sobbing a little. We chatted briefly, then I left. It’s really hard for her to see me pack up my stuff and take it. Part of me thinks, "Wow, this is so stupid" while the other part thinks, "It’s really for the best for both of you." The truth is, I still care for her very very much. I guess that’s to be expected since we were together for so long and actually had a pretty good relationship. I had trouble sleeping last night in my bed because I just stared at the ceiling remembering all of the good times we’ve had. That’s the hardest part. We had SOOOO much fun together over the past 4.5 years and it’s so hard to let that go. I watched Dan In Real Life last night and got a little emotional thinking "She’d really like this movie." Nothing seems right without her and, nothing seemed right with her. I was "alone" for the past .5 years of our relationship, but I knew she’d be there to listen if I really needed something. Now, there’s really no one and it’s difficult. I have many friends, and two that I can count on for emotional support. However I really want to be alone at the moment. I want to be alone as much as I want to feel close to someone again.
Nothing seems right without her and, nothing seemed right with her. I was "alone" for the past .5 years of our relationship, but I knew she’d be there to listen if I really needed something

Wow, I know that feeling exactly.

Me and the girl I’ve been with for over 6 years split up on Friday. I know how it feels being "alone" even though you live with the person and even though you know whats wrong, and what you must do its so hard to let all that time go, you almost feel like you’ve made it this far so something must be right.

I can tell you this it was probably a living hell for her to be alone with all your stuff around because thats where I am now. I haven’t been able to bring myself to take everything down yet so I guess I’m only making it harder on myself.

Sorry to hijack.

If you want to talk or something shoot a PM. OT support ftw (who would think that would be said )
Thanks for the update man, I was wondering how it was going.

I’m sorry its been rough lately for ya, but to be frank, its gonna be. Break-ups arent easy, and "easy" break ups are almost harder. You’ll make it though. You’re really dealing with this well, and the fact that you can still recognize and remind yourself why you broke up is great. A lot of people loose sight of that during this time.

Question: Why are do you still have stuff at her place/need to pick stuff up after 3 weeks? That cant be making it any easier. Please tell me you dont have anything left there and dont have to go back. Its just like picking the scab off every time you do it.

Along those same lines, you’re right about needing/wanting to be alone. You might not need to be alone from all your friends, but I dont think you really need to see her (or talk to her) for a good bit. Let the wound heal for a while – and the best way to do that is to leave it alone! Its really really really hard b/c like you said, she’s been your emotional support for so long, but in this case, she really cant be b/c thats just counter productive to your healing process.

Hang in there!

I have 2 jobs and spare time is scarce. I have a bed and a desk there, still. Those will be gone this weekend. She doesn’t have anything to sleep on and I’d feel like a dick taking that away from her if I don’t need it right now. She has something now, but I’m just waiting to get my mattresses until the weekend.

You know, the scary part, and what kept me up last night, was that after this weekend’s moving, I’ll have no reason to see her again. Granted we’re going to run to eachother because we’re involved in a lot of the same activites and organizations…that’s how we met…But, it’s frightening to realize that there’s no reason to see her anymore. It makes me extremely sad to know that this is it. I’m angry, depressed, isolated, numb all at once.

I hooked up a wireless network for her at her new place yesterday. No, she wasn’t there but her best friend was. They’re sharing a house. Anyway, we talked for about 2 hours about her and the way she is. Her friend told me that she knew the ex will regret her actions, and believes she lost focus on us for the sake of her education. Education is extremely important, but she’s not the type with the ability to focus on more than once thing at a time. I graduated, have a career, etc. She’s older than me, had a career, lost it and went back to school. She’ll be the first person in her family to graduate from college. Her friend thinks she’s the one being selfish, not me, but she just can’t see it yet. One of the last things my ex said to me was, "You know, I finally get a good guy and I don’t know what to do with him." I’ve put up with a lot of shit, but I guess I just got sick of it.
I don’t think you should expect to remain friends. Unless you are a particularly evolved person I can’t imagine that not being extremely messy. Friends need to be honest with eachother, and as ex lovers of almost 5 years you are going to need to keep some things hidden or risk hurting eachother.

Oh, ok. All very good reasons – I was just checkin.

Yes, its frightening, but try to look at it from a positive perspective (yes, yes, easy to say, hard to do). You KNOW that (even if it doesnt feel great) by not having a reason to see her anymore, you’re giving yourself the opportunity to heal which you wouldnt otherwise have.

Just dont go around finding reasons to contact her after this – and I say that knowing how easy it is to do w/out realizing what youre doing. Finding her favorite flavor ice cream on sale at the grocery store =/ calling her and telling her about it or buying her some and dropping it off at her place. Being in the neighborhood for something else =/ stopping by to say hi. It may seem obvious, but b/c she’s still going to be on your mind some, its hard not to at least think about doing stuff like this. Its ok to think about it, not ok to do it.

This part was especially hard for me in my last break up. I dont know if its just a girl thing, but I know that because we had such a "good" break-up and there was no bad blood really preventing me from calling him, it was hard not to, even if I didnt really have a good reason and most of the time it just made me hurt b/c I wasnt actually healing. Being able to stop this really helped.

You had every right to get sick of it. She’s put her education first, which is FINE – lots of people do this everyday and its not abnormal, nor does it mean you sucked as a bf. However, its not fine that you’d be expected to sit around and go through all that shit for it. She probably didnt know what to do with a good guy when she had him, but that still doesnt mean you gotta hang around till she figures it out.

all right, for the most part. I’m keeping unbelievable busy as a part of my job. I lost my primary job, but my secondary job I have the option to be full-time, so I’m not hurting financially. Thinking of beginning a freelance venture, now I just gotta get some money.

Emotionally, still up and down. Nothing’s stable and I’m fairly unenthusiastic, unmotivated and tired most days. That’s probably mostly fatigue, but it’s all running together. Thanks for asking though!

it’s not just a girl thing, imo. i called her yesterday for some BS reason and she called me out on it. wasn’t upset, but it caught me off guard. she still calls me and chats about her day, and she works at my gym, ssssoooooo…sometimes I see her regardless. I can’t really adjust my schedule around her and I’m not going to. I survive on routine right now.

It really cut down on our communication and I totally blame that for the failure of the relationship. Hell, we never had a fight and make-up sex in almost 5 years. We didn’t communicate effectively at all. I tried to sugar-coat stuff because I wanted everything to be okay. That’s not going to work, so I’ve realized. I’ve been bluntly honest since we broke up and it feels great. I’m taking some blame, she’s taking some blame, it’s BOTH our faults.

agree. i use bad memories to fuel me when i am working out.

I know I’d be sooooo pussyhurt at the moment over her dating someone else.
well im kinda disappointed you still talk to her. i mean if you want to be better off in the long run i think its just better to not communicate and not come around her territory and she shouldnt come around yours for at least a year. im not saying the gym is her territory but im sure you can find another if you really didnt wanna see her.
you do sound like you are handling your emotions better than before though

yeah, i know it’s not healthy to really talk to her. I’m using a different gym as of today. It’s closer to me anyway now, since i’ve moved. As I’ve perviously said, we run in the same circles. We’re both active bicycle racers in the same club. She’s mountain, I’m road, so it’s not like we race together. "sigh: but, anyway. It’s getting a little easier emotionally, so thanks for noticing

Well, at least you know. Its good that you changed gyms, and that you’re not just doing it b/c of her. I dont really think that if you truly accidentally run into her at some event, club get together or whatever, that it’s a bad thing – you’re just going about your life, which is fine.
That said, I do think its kinda funny that she called you out on calling her for no reason. Its a sign that she’s on the same page as you (or the one you know you should be on) about the break up, which is awesome. One good thing about ‘good’ break ups is that a lot of the time, ‘you both know what you have to do’ so no one is slowing the process down with unnessecary drama.

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Why is it a competition? Something that’s important to you is probably fucked up. This is really important to me because its been a problem for my all my life, and its only getting worse. Sure its just women, but the sole reason I’m here is because some guy was good enough to bang some chick and forgot to pull out and bam, black jesus was born. I won’t ever have the chance to experience love or whatever again, I think that’s fairly important. Think about being socially mute, its like everything around me is a prop, not real, a game, and for some reason I can’t manipulate them the way I’m supposed to.

I did not mean to make it a competition and yes its important to me because I have also been having trouble with this all my life.

This is not true, find a therapist. If you cant afford one go through the county health services. You wont regret it.

I’ve been through this. I make too much money for the sliding scale. I make decent money, but they don’t have a mechanism that compensates for my $861 student loan payment that royally fucks my life.
I’d say it has less to do with maturity and emotional development, and much more to do with self-esteem issues.

I’d be excited to hear about your successful/failed social interactions you have. What I mean is you could keep a log of every social interaction that you care about, and afterwards, write down how you think it went.

I did this while I was in therapy, and although I spent hours telling my therapist how confident I was, she could easily point out a ton of sentences I would write down that actually showed a deep insecurity that even I didn’t realize I had.

This way, we could hear your thoughts at the time and help you realize your self-defeating thoughts. Every time you make a thread, it’s probably just a summary of a million thoughts you’ve had recently. These types of problems are better cured from the root.

It’s just a suggestion. Perhaps you could start up a thread and just post it in whenever you want.

As I’ve said before, I just really don’t want to see you fall into the trap of taking advice and forgetting it once you’re out in social interactions.

excuses = rationalization

you work hard enough and you can find one

everyone here is pretty much tired of hearing about whatever my problems are.

I might start writing all that shit down…but at this point I’ve pretty much cut off interacting with people all together. I’ve effectively given up, again. I guess I’ll wait another 8-years and maybe the pattern will continue.

well, you can also look at motherfucking reality. I don’t understand what the fuck why everyone thinks this is so simple. My options are to either not pay rent or not pay my student loan. $436 per month is a large chunk of money for me. I don’t see what’s so difficult about I DON’T MAKE THAT MUCH MONEY PER MONTH!!!!!oneoneone

64,997 posts I think your interacting enough.

Have you thought of calling the loans office to see if they can provide you with a "grace" period?

nothing about reality is simple, Good luck.

forums are my only real communication with people, aside from that I just sit around my apartment or go out alone and make an ass of myself.

The grace period is not an option. I could go back on deferment but all that interest compounds monthly and my payments keep going up and up. The way it sits now, after all my bills (I’m not talking about cable TV or shit like that) I have $288 to buy gasoline and food with.

This post alone is a perfect example of why a journal would help you.

You have no idea if people are tired of hearing what your problems are. You can’t assume to know what people think. When observing another person’s words or actions, people with depression/anxiety assume to know much more than they actually do know.

Your self-defeating thought here on this board tell me that you probably constantly have the same self-defeating thoughts in social situations too. "She probably has a boyfriend," or "She probably wouldn’t like me," or "That date went terrible! She won’t want to see me again."

You would be completely surprised if you knew what people actually thought. Most people have the same insecurities as you, just on a larger or smaller scale.

You could say "I have a feeling that people on this message board are getting tired of hearing my problems." That would be an opinion, and you would subconsciously accept it. However, when you state it as a fact, as you did, you subconsciously accept it as a fact. If you were talking to a girl and said to yourself "She isn’t interested in me," then the battle is over. You have already lost. A fact is a fact.

The world isn’t always as you think it is. I freaking love Star Wars, so I’ll quote Qui-Gon Jinn and say "Your focus determines your reality." Stop focusing on the "facts."

I disagree. I know I’m not exactly intelligent, far from it. I sure as hell wouldn’t assume my muddied opinions of my experiences were more accurate than an opinion of someone who is capable of maintaining relationships and has a successful social life.

I’m not exactly the most intelligent person, if I were I’d probably be making more money, have more friends, and not be in this thread right now. I respect everyone’s advice here.

I’m so worried every time I speak to anyone, but especially with women who are high in demand and where I have tons and tons of competition from people who look better, are taller, more "pumped", better cloths, better hair, more intelligent, more conversational. I don’t want to annoy people. I don’t want to be the weird guy who won’t go away. Until I spend some more time in the gym, get better cars, buy a house, and do a bunch of other shit, I’m not going to do well with women.

You’re approaching it like they have to approve of you. Something to keep in mind:

They already know the kind of man they like, and you’re already the kind of man you are, so they already know whether they like you or not, they just never had to think about it before. All you’re doing is finding it out; all the prep work happened over the course of the past 27 years, there’s nothing you can do now, so just let the chips fall where they may.

I typically approach it thinking, "I hope I know what to do so the don’t figure out that I’m a miserable fuck."

I know its futile and I have to "let the chips fall," but I really am tired of spending all my time alone. It gets so old. I’m so fucking lonely.

Social interaction is just like anything else: it can be improved with practice.

He can develop more confidence and self-esteem and absolutely be the type of man most girls want. He isn’t "stuck" with what he has.

100% of his failures are in is head, caused by catastrophic and self-defeating thoughts. Some people do get better, and he is obviously intelligent enough to be one of those who overcome the problems, whether or not he will admit it.

There is something he can do about it, and he can start right now.
That’s the wrong approach, Socrates. I agree that superficial stuff can be improved, but on the whole, it’s safe to assume he’s the person he wants to be because he likes being that person, so he will always default back to who he "really is" when it comes to important issues. So it’s better not to present a facade that makes him look like someone he isn’t, only to get into one potentially-successful relationship after another that fails because he was lying about who he is.

Seriously, if he just accepts that he is who he is and she likes who she likes and there’s no changing either one, it becomes a hell of a lot easier to get rejected, because you didn’t do anything wrong, you just didn’t match up at all and so it wouldn’t have been worth the effort to try anyway.

I prefer to apologize (humorously!) for having no game whatsoever. Surprisingly, they usually relax a lot when I say that, because it means they don’t have to try to read between my lines to decipher meanings that aren’t really there.

One thing women will never forgive is a guy who thinks he’s a miserable fuck. You’re not a miserable fuck, you’re just weird. Of course, if you’ve based your entire life on the notion that you should be like other people, then yes, I suppose you are a miserable fuck — but those people whom you have let dictate the standards of your life are going to die too, no matter how fantastic they are at being cool, so their opinions really aren’t worth more than your own.

Unless you’re drunk, stoned, half-naked, and living in a cardboard box in an alley, your approach on life has clearly met with some success. So you don’t need to continue wondering whether you’re "doing it right". The only right way is the way that works, and there are lots of ways that work. Yours is, presumably, one of them.

If you enter into an interaction with a woman confident in the fact that your personal history proves you’re not a complete failure, and that you and she are both the way you are because you like being that way, then it becomes a lot easier to get rejected over and over until you find someone who likes your worldview, because, as I said, you didn’t do anything wrong in the first place.

I’ve been reading some self-help on becoming alpha, and taking control of my life…but I keep fucking failing every god damn time.

It really hit hard to when I was going to a club, which I really didn’t want to go to, with some friends on saturday. There were 5 chicks my 4 friends picked up at another bar, so when we went to another bar that doesn’t let single guys in unless they drive maseratis. My buddies couldn’t even convince this girl to tell the bouncer that she was with me so I could get in the club. She couldn’t fucking bring herself to slum it and just for an instant tell a random person that she was associated with me.

This is what I don’t get. I don’t understand what’s wrong with me. My old roommate and her husband agree that they’re perplexed and don’t know what my fucking problem is. At this point I’ve pretty much made up my mind that I’m done trying socially. I have to accept that whatever the ailment is, I won’t understand it or be able to do anything about it. I will be alone for the rest of my life. There is no getting out of this, its the way it works.

I’m like one of those guys who weighs 140lb, and has to go to an adult arcade to experience women. I’m the guy who doesn’t know his neighbors because he never goes in or out of the house to meet them, and its a good thing he doesn’t because then they’d be creeped out and move. How the fuck did I become the scary rapist guy who sweats and has bad hygine? I’m like Kip from Napoleon Dynamite. Its kinda sad. I’ve been driving the track car because my daily driver is broken. I only have the driver’s seat in, and for the last 2 weeks, this hasn’t been a problem…lol.

He can’t accept who he is, because that is the whole problem from the beginning. The underlying source or problems with people of low self-esteem is because they don’t have the "I’m okay with being me," mindset. Instead, they think "I should be this type of guy so others will accept me." If Black Jesus could simply say "I’m all right with who I am!", then he wouldn’t have any of these problems. He wouldn’t feel he has to have nice things in order for women to like him.

When you say "it’s safe to assume he’s the person he wants to be because he likes being that person," I see a very different picture. Does Black Jesus seem like he likes himself? Do depressed people ever really like themselves?

I’m not saying he should try to change his personality, his beliefs, or any of the things he likes. I don’t mean to make it sound like I want him to create a facade of who he is. I’m not talking about Pick-Up Artist stuff and lying about who you are or any lying whatsoever. I’m simply saying he should try to recognize these self-defeating thoughts and beliefs, and change them. Those are very possible to change.

I agree. I’m not alright with who I am, I do not want to be me. Me sucks. No one wants to be around me, especially women. Women have always fucked with "me."

I realize that I’m incredibly negative. We had a new employee in the office that told me last week, "what happened man? I’ve been here like 4 months and I’ve never met anyone so consistently negative all the time. At first I thought it was funny, then I thought you were looking for attention, but now I wonder if someone in your family died."

I had a really good week when I went on a vacation with a random girl back in January. It was awesome. I’ve been motivated to speak to women since then because I want to feel like that again. I couldn’t remember what it was like because I haven’t had a date January, 2000. Now I feel like a Heroine addiction every time I talk to a girl and she instantaneously shits on me.

Yes, that was a bitch move on her part. However, that was just her, and plenty of other cute girls would have helped you out.

However, it sounds like you didn’t know this girl. It’s not like she was a really good friend and did this to you. How can you take it so personal when she doesn’t know anything about you?

The only thing that really means is two things: 1) She is a bitch, and 2) You aren’t good looking enough to get beautiful girls interested in you by looks alone. Fortunately, 99% of men out there aren’t good looking enough to get women interested in them based on looks alone. As you already said you are doing, keep going to the gym and improve yourself as much as possible.

There isn’t really anything I can say to give you the courage keep going back out there and trying again. If Abraham Lincoln gave up as easily as you, I’d probably have someone here to make my lunch for me right now.
That just makes it sound even more like you need approval from everyone.

I already told you, if you’re making money and you’re not getting thrown in jail every weekend and you’re not strung-out all the time, then your take on life is valid. So stop feeling like it isn’t.

- – -

You know what I did to break free from needing validation? I lived all by myself for months, didn’t see anyone, rarely called anyone on the phone, and wrestled with why nobody ever wanted to pro-actively show an interest in me. Eventually I just concluded that it’s because I wasn’t giving them any reason to notice me. I don’t deserve attention, there’s six billion people out there for other people to look at. You gotta do your own thing, preferably in public, and try to attract attention that way. Nobody’s going to pro-actively want to notice you and think you’re cool and go out with you. You have to show that you’re worth paying attention to, by doing something that catches their eye. And if nothing you do is that sort of thing, then at least enjoy doing it by yourself.

To tell you the truth, socialites are all alone too, because they’re all only pretending to pay attention to each other so others will pay attention to them. It’s all a game.

hahahahaha, that’s fucking great. I’m going to use that.

After my ex and I split up in January, I spent the next couple of months sitting at home wondering why my social life sucked. Sometimes I thought "I must not be the exciting guy I once was, or once thought I was."

However, I started calling friends more and more and getting invited to parties. Most the times, the people at these parties would love me and want to hang out again.

Had I not made the phone calls to hang out, I wouldn’t have realized that I was an amiable guy and people really enjoyed hanging out with me.

I agree with you, but if there’s 6B people out there, and 1/100 have the qualities desire by other people, then shouldn’t I adjust my desired goals to something realistic like solitude.

I guess if anything I can discuss this here, and not really worry about people flipping out. I’ve been thinking about suicide again, but not like everyone else does. I don’t want to kill myself, its kinda like I should. Does this make sense. I want to succeed at this and have friends but more importantly, I want a woman in my life. I’m not talking about a wife or GF for me to drive crazy with neediness, I want to be able to go out with a girl, or have a girl come over once a month or so. That’s not an option though, and I’m tired of living like this where I constantly feel like I’m fucked up. Its not normal to be totally unable to attract women. I don’t want to give up, I want to have a desire to win at this. But logic is telling me to stop attempting because my success record is so poor. Its like death is the most intelligent option for me, it will stop all the shit-emotions I’m tired of, but I don’t want to quit, I want to feel something again. Is that totally absurd? I should kill myself, but I don’t want to. You’ll probably never hear that again.

My buddies are going on another trip to the wine country at the end of this year, and I want to go, but I’m not going alone. That’s 6-months away, basically I have 5 months to find a girl that I want to take with me. I want to be happy like I was on that trip to the Wine Country. I forgot what it was like to feel like that. I really did. Now it haunts me.
You know, I think you’re a pretty cool dude.. But damn bro, it’s like you solve your issues then resort right back to the same ones.

Practice what you do when you’re happy / fulfilled more often, the outcome won’t always be so negative.

I’m not trolling but I seriously LOL’d when I read this… just the way you wrote it made it funny.

But, that is the only reason why any of us are here. Being a planned baby or unplanned doesn’t define who you are… you define who you are.

I can relate to you more than you know… I am 27 and have only had 1 girlfriend in my life which was back in high school in 1999. I have been working on changing my life though.

First you need to change your way of thinking. You sound like a negative nancy, and no one likes to hang out with negative nancy’s. Becoming more positive about things will help change your mentality.

Secondly stop putting the pussy on a pedestal. If you go into interactions with women thinking you’re inferior to them they will sense this and you will have no chance to spark attraction. Alpha males never see themselves as inferior and all the alpha males I know have stuck their dicks into a lot of pussy.

What hobbies do you have? Do you workout at the gym? Lift weights and cardio training? Can you play the guitar? Have you thought about learning martial arts? I have been going to martial arts class for a few years now and it has boosted my confidence in all social situations. I even go to the gym and lift weights and jog/bike. Working out releases endorphins that give you a natural high. When I was a kid I was the happiest I have ever been and realized it was because I ran or rode my bike everywhere. Kids nowadays sit inside playing video games and don’t get much exercise and they are all emo and depressed.

If you like music, you should learn to play the guitar. Take leasons, it will give you something to do on a week night or weekend. I had a chubby friend that loves playing music and was in band in school and played other instruments but started learning to play the guitar teaching himself. It was amazing when he would bust out the guitar at parties and start playing and the girls at the party would flock around him with thier pussys swooning. You could see the wet spot thru their pants He could have had sex with a lot of those girls but he was the ‘nice guy’ type so he would never hook up with them.

Start living your life doing things you want to do. You will become a happier person and a more interesting person. Also look into some books and publications on improving your social skills. There are many out there. Also keep in mind that some pickup artists teach some things that can also improve your social skills. Sometimes when trying to meet women you may have to open a group of girls or a group with girls and guys mixed. Knowing how to open a set can help improve your confidence.

my conception comment was not about planner pregnancy, it was about having the ability to make that happen, women choosing men to sleep with.

I don’t just put women on a pedestal, I consider myself substandard. I’m the worst at everything I do. I may be 5’11" 194lb at 12%, but I still feel like Urkel. I have the worst physical aspect in every category, worst car, worst apartment, worst furniture, worst opinions, and everything else. Its like limited # of friends to me a favor by hanging out with the retarded kid who nobody likes.

There have been 2 nights in particular where I could really hook with women. I can open just fine, I just can’t get over the logic that I’m totally random, they know what I’m doing, and why would they want to talk to me when I have the least to offer of any guy in that room? I don’t see why any of these women want me to interrupt them and speak.

It’s most likely a lack of development.

My problem stemmed from my childhood. 2 things were wrong when I was a kid. First I was cute as hell when I was a kid. I got compliments from everyone, and I had girls chasing me around all the time. I never had to work for attention from girls it just always came to me. Then when I hit puberty, I got hit with the ‘fuck your good looks up stick’. I wasn’t the cutest kid anymore and when you get into middle school and high school, everyone’s social skills start to develop and you can’t get by on good looks anymore unless you are a hot girl with big tits and a nice ass.

Then when I was in middle school and high school, my parents were extremely religious, and they were scared that any interaction I had with a girl would lead to me getting some girl pregnant. So they suffocated me and never allowed me to go to parties, dances, or other places where you develop social skills at a young age. I couldn’t even have a girlfriend and when I got my first girlfriend in my senior year of high school all hell broke loose and my parents hated it.

So I was never able to develop the correct social skills to interact with women. I can hang out with guy friends and socialize just fine, but when a woman is near by my mind goes blank and I don’t know what to talk about. Maybe your situation is the same.

We can only work on improving our social prowess, and keep our heads up that we still have our 30′s ahead of us. Just remember women love older guys for various reasons. You probably have seen many guys in there 30′s dating young hot big breasted women in their early to mid 20′s. I know I have seen my share. So at least I have something to try and achieve when I hit my 30′s.

You gotta try to adopt the winners mentality. When you see sports reporters interviewing athletes before a big game and they ask the athlete who is going to win they always say they or their team will win. If they said that they are probably going to lose, they will never win.

You do have the ability to make anything happen. You do have many things you can offer women. Women do want to talk with you.

Think like a loser and you’ll be a loser.
Think like a winner and you’ll be a winner.

why? I don’t see why any woman would want me, some random loser, talking to them. Even if I weren’t a random loser and were just "average", they still wouldn’t want me speaking to them. I don’t know what any woman would want from me that I could give her.

I’m never tired of your posts because you write them very, very well.

It was uplifting when you were happy because you’re usually so unhappy, but to be honest, I like the posts when you’re up as well as when you’re down… it’s always good stuff.

I think the main thing is that your thoughts always make a lot of sense to me. There is something about the way you describe the things in your life – be they happy or sad – that hits home.

Your humor, insights, ideas, advice, compliments, reality-checks, listening skills, etc etc etc.

You’re an intelligent human being with ideas and views that perhaps could intrigue many women. If you can make a girl laugh and feel good, you need not much else to offer.

every guy has that shit though. I know I’m whining like a faggot at this point, but there is no reason any woman is going to want standard options which you listed for me, when she could have some guy who is ultimately superior. There is no point in even trying to start this game if I’m not the best available.

I know that’s probably going to piss a lot of people off, but why should I even talk to these women if ultimately they are just going to use me as a placeholder until some guy with bigger arms, better hair, a better car, more entertaining perspective, or whatever comes by? It might happen in the first 5 minutes I’m talking to them, or it will happen after we’ve been married 5-years. Either way they’re not going to be happy with what they have even if they are so inclined to use me to entertain them for the meantime.

Just like the last girl. We were together like a month, I thought I played all my cards right…then, before I had a chance to fuck it up, she upgraded and I never heard from her again. Not a single fucking word. I don’t want to fucking deal with that again. It happens like that all the time. Its no that I did poorly, fucked up, was mean, or lacked entertaining qualities, I just wasn’t good enough and never had the type of relationship which warranted a response. I don’t even have enough worth as a human being to get a fucking phone call letting me know its over, "no date tonight or ever, I found something better, and it wasn’t difficult because you’re slightly below average and pretty much any guy who shows up will do better than you."

This is called "projecting thoughts on to others" and if you continue to do this you will never change. Everyone is is a loser and average, its just how you display yourself. Believe it or not there are other people out there like you including a SO or two if you look hard enough.

that was the craziest for me. I haven’t been happy like that in at least 8-years, if ever. Its like for a moment, life wasn’t in a dungeon. I enjoyed some things. Its like a got a glimpse of something I wasn’t supposed to see, because now its something I want to replicate but I’m incapable, so it makes me miserable.

you’re right, but you could still get a 10.

a girl’s interest in you has nothing to do with "qualities". it’s like playing basketball or riding a back or, most accurately, like learning a video game. when you miss the hoop it has nothing to do with who you are as a human being. it has to do with how you handled the ball! you don’t quit a video game when you lose. you lose 10 times until you get the general movement down.

since your inner game is so incredibly, horribly fucked, why don’t you just focus on outer game? it’s a skill set, you can learn it. yeah, you’re a miserable wretch and you suck in every way and so on, or whatever else fucked up shit your mind is making you believe right now. but fortunately, attracting women is something you DO, after practicing; not something you are.

POSITIVE outer game only. there’s a website for that, which I can link you to, not the one I PM’ed you, but a different one.

This is false, get it out of your head and the first step is over.

the pattern over the past 8 years is irrefutable.

You have to allow yourself to change or you will keep going in circles.

but how do I change the most basic part of my life? Everything I do, every day, is based upon the reality that everything comes to an end, and everything I enjoy will soon go away and I’ll be left with nothing. How do I change that learned behavior with the contrary, and somehow create an ideological shift that will actually take?

Therapy.

Contrary to what’s been said, I think you’re setting yourself up for failure by completely ignoring your "inner game" and only focusing on "outer game."

Yes, if you went out and just started approaching a crap ton of women a day, or better yet, took the "stylelife" challenge and did Style’s "Get a Date in 30 Days" thing, your confidence absolutely would go up. It is very possible that after many attempts, you would have some success and your confidence would skyrocket. That is a solution.

However, because of your depressive tendencies, you seem to focus on the negative stuff and rarely on the positive. That means, you could go on 5 great dates, then have 1 bad date, and you would be tore up over that bad date wondering "why the fuck didn’t she like me?" I’ve been through the whole "PUA" trip that most of vaginarium is still going through. I read "The Game" way before 99% of those guys. I used to talk to a ton of those guys through PM’s, and the reason you don’t see me post in there much more is because many of them are keyboard jockies who are deeply insecure. Once you become confident in who you are and your game, trading tips and ideas on how to pick up girls seems less appealing. I spend my free evenings out socializing, not reading about socializing. The reality is that not all dates are going to go awesome, and you’re going to get rejected a lot. Because of your focusing on the negative, only focusing on your "outer game" could be even more disastrous to your self-esteem. From what I know about you, that one rejection would fuck you up and you would have a huge set back.

I think it would be much more beneficial to you to find a way to get therapy, whether it be paying a therapist or even finding some free therapy group. A therapist can really help you realize how your mind is your worst enemy and stop you from thinking these negative thoughts. However, if you still want to read the PUA stuff, I don’t think that is a bad idea. It helped me out a lot and I did get 500% better with women because of it. However, therapy helped me out in ways that David DeAngelou couldn’t. All the openings in the world couldn’t fix the insecurities I developed because of my absent father and emotionally-wrecked mother. But, when it becomes something you’re talking more about and not doing, like much of the vaginarium it seems, it can be a problem.
I just went to the gym and totally flipped out. I couldn’t get find the playlist I wanted in the mp3 player, so I smashed that pos. Then I got even more pissed off because my shoulder hurts, so i just left. One of my cars is broken, the other has fucked up exhaust, its horribly uncomfortable, and I’m tired of all this shit and its making me fucking insane. Everything is compounding right now: girls, subaru, miata, student loans, travel for work, not wanting to work out but making myself, the insurance company not returning phone calls, women blowing me off, being fucking lonely, not having enough money…its all hitting me in the balls right now. I really don’t want to live like this anymore. I think I’m going to get drunk.

WTF do I do now? I have this fucking insane level of anger right now, almost safe to say that I’ve never been angry like this before. I really want to hit more stuff, burn the fucking place down, jump off a building, fucking something. I need to release all this anger and have no fucking clue how to do it.
Get hammered or something man! That’s always a good way to calm down after a bad day. That’s what I’ll be doing in about two hours at the bowling alley with some friends!

I feel like that every fucking moment of my life. It’s gotten to the point where i constantly ask people who I have somewhat of a connection with "in your honest opinion do you think I’m annoying" they usually tell me no but then I say something like "you can be completely honest with me, you won’t hurt my feelings" then they usually tell me that if i keep asking them that question then I’ll start to become annoying. I don’t know I don’t find it hard putting myself out there and making friend, but I do find it hard keeping friends because I feel like I’m bothering people when I try to reach out. I hate feeling like this but every time I try to make steps to change this I get the same shitty feeling that I’m bothering people and I tend to just lose touch.

It’s because he’s working it out logically, but not applying it to his real life.

Good. You’re finally getting to the point where you have the necessary drive to do something about it.

I got angry too. And I spent about a month drunk whenever I had free time. It’s all part of the grieving process.

Just roll with the punches man. We’ve all had shitty conversations/meet-ups with chicks and knew we blew it, no need to act like she would’ve been the one had we done it right.

Just be yourself because one day down the road you’re going to have to be, and better for it to never be than for her to realize she liked you for all the wrong reasons.

If you’re having issues with conversation, just talk to pretty much everyone you come into contact with, just a brief conversation and try to find things to ask other than "what’s up?" "how you been?" and "gee, would you look at that weather." Notice things about chicks, their shoes, hair style, whatever… mention something about it, or make a joke, ask a question.. just make conversation with as many different people as possible
I’m still wigged out angry. I’m going to take this week off from the gym…I went in there last night and I was just too insane to lift.

to cap things off, a dipshit in an a8 decided to cut me off bad, then brake check me, then swerve over into my lane almost running me off the road, then point and laugh at my car. I tried to get him to pull over so I could shoot him, but I had no luck.
I really, really, really have a powerful desire to scrounge up some money, pack all my shit up, and move after finding a job in northern California. I feel static and there are too many negative experiences here that I want to leave behind.

If that’s what you really want to do, go for it! Maybe new faces and new experiences would be good for you. But, you’ve got to get in a new mindframe to truly be at a better place. If you’re going to move, that’s awesome but you have to leave all the mental crap behind. If you don’t change your outlook on things it doesn’t matter how far you move, because it will be the same pattern.
Here’s something I’m translating only for you from a book on self-esteem in French :
People with a high self-esteem react emotionally in front of a failure but it doesn’t leave an emotional scar. They can face critics on sensitive issues or contradict them, they don’t really try to find out negative things about themselves (while those with low self-esteem or LSE do), they don’t feel that they have to justify themselves after a failure and think that many others would have failed too, they don’t feel rejected if criticized and have low evaluation anxiety. Success confirms their self-perception (instead of changing it like for LSE people) and they don’t think much about not being able to meet the standards or that success won’t last. They are excellent in certain specific domains and accept some weaknesses in exchange for this while LSE people prefer not to have any weakpoint and to be medium overall.

(Note that low self-esteem is the contrary on pretty much all points.)

Advantages = resilience and being able to face adversity (while low self-esteem can motivate to succeed and being able to listen to critics)
Disadvantages = can avoid listening to critics (while low self-esteem leads to suffering and anxiety).

Just some food for thought, gotta go study for now…

The difference between people who succeed with women and those who do not is not the rate of failure. It’s just that successful guys try and try again without making much of an issue of a rejection.

Failure can push some people to disengage from their goal (an extreme sensitivity of their behavioral inhibition system does this, it’s not ALL bad, it can be quite adaptative at times) while other will try harder (sensitivity of the behavioral approach system).
I really want to succeed, but everything I’ve experienced just in the past two weeks tells me to reevaluate my expectations. I want to shift my thoughts and be successful, I really do. However I can’t seem to make it stick.
God man you’re a fucking mess. I seen pictures of you before, you look great. You’re fairly tall, lean and muscular and you got HAIR, which I don’t.

Weren’t you living out of your car a few years ago? You had the drive to change you situation then. You have a lot going for you but you fail to see any of it.

yeah, I lived in the jetta for about 6 weeks, crashing at a few friend’s places, and showering at the university gym. I’m 5’11", 192lb, and about 13% after that bottle of wine last night. I can handle financial survival just fine…well, kinda, but I don’t know what to do about the intellectually growing and being sociable. I’m getting old, and I really want to get control of this so I can still enjoy my life.

lol that’s the truth. My old roommate does that… we all give him shit for it, especially when he flubs it up, but I know he’s the only one pulling a semi-regular stream of ass.

ok.

so you’re saying after you got successful with women, you finally patched up your inner game. because of therapy or whatever. but notice the order of events.

and socrates, i remember you going on ad nauseum about dating and i never thought your advice was particularly insightful. most of it was a play on the "hard-to-get" cliche. "show her your independence," and whatnot, which is rooted in insecurity, and fear, and an unhealthy obsession with the worst social aspects of human beings.

the advice you gave that was really disastrous was your application of game to questions of romance. ugh

the copious amount of ladiez advice you gave says more about how much you like to be an authority on the ladiez than anything else. and yeah, lots of guys talk the talk but don’t walk the walk, but i think you’re projecting that onto the vag… not everyone there is like that.

bj, I agree with socrates that you should see a therapist if you have the financial means. if you don’t have the financial means, then fuck inner game. think about it, attempting to fix your mental state yourself, that would be trying to fix your disfunctioning brain with that same disfunctioning brain, fixing an infected computer with an infected program. good luck

i think everyone is different, but from personal experience, drive can overcome inner game issues, and focusing on outer game forces the mind away from all the messed up thoughts that it feeds itself. why not learn that, in the meantime, seeing as your inner game is so royally fucked right now.
You just sit here and whine about that no woman would want to speak with you.

Why don’t you stop being such a baby and go transform yourself into someone they would want to talk to.
No one here will have a magic key for you that will solve your problems. Start taking responsibility for yourself.

I was able to get laid, yes, but I still felt insecure about who I was. Once I finally found a girl I liked and we became a couple, it became disastrous because my insecurities really started to show.

I became good at dating, which I think most people would after practicing the PUA stuff, but most PUAs have the ultimate goal of finding a girl to share their life with. Just because someone can be good at dating doesn’t mean they can have a healthy relationship. All the dating in the world won’t help a guy feel secure with a woman when all he has known his whole life is abandonment.

The advice I gave was stuff that I read about in PUA stuff, and then went out and applied in real life. I could care less if you thought my advice was insightful or not. I received a lot of PM’s from people asking for advice, and I was happy to give it. I can’t expect to please everybody, especially someone with an ego like yours who likes to confront people at every possible chance. You haven’t liked me since you tried to confront my English abilities, so I can imagine the preconceived negative attitude you already have of me even before you read my posts. Hence the fact that you’re attacking my old dating advice, which has nothing to do with what we are talking about right now. As soon as you get defensive, the good grammar and big words start coming out.

I made it a point to separate game from romance. I even openly admitted "I don’t know much about relationships." Now you’re just lying and attacking me.

What? Where is the logic in that?

Being bad with women made me depressed throughout high school, and I found ways to help me get better. I was extremely interested in the subject, and I liked talking about it. Some of the questions people were asking were situations I had been through, so I offered my advice. How can you possibly make the connection that me giving advice relates to my attitude towards women?

Do you want to know why I have the opinion I do of the vaginarium? It’s because many of the guys who seem to be the "authority" on dating advice in there are the same guys who were just messaging me months ago telling me how their dating lives suck and wanted to talk to me about it. I’m not saying the whole vaginarium is like that of course, but there are many.

If I knew what I was supposed to transform into, and knew how to do that, I would. Jesus fuck I’d love to do that.
Socrates, being in a relationship is what reveals insecurities of that nature; not seeing a shrink.

The disaster of my first experience with love is what made me capable of my current experience.

Btw, I guess I confused your romantic advice with Viper’s or someone else’s. Are you sure you never applied pick-up advice to romance?

I agree that my relationship revealed the insecurities. But, I wasn’t smart enough to understand it or know what to do about it. I was always confused because I would tell myself "I thought I was good with women….what the hell is the matter with me."

My first serious relationship was ruined because of my insecurities while I was deployed, and my second relationship was ruined was because I was so terrified it would happen again that I wasn’t able to get close to anyone.

I feel that I’m ready now, and the next relationship will go much better.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that you’re right; my relationships did reveal my insecurities. However, my shrink gave me the tools I needed to overcome them. I still have an emptiness because of my childhood, but I’m actually able to enjoy my day now and be happy.

edit: To be honest, I don’t remember 90% of the advice I used to give, but I do remember being adamant about not giving serious relationship advice. Unless I came in drunk one night and felt like an expert on relationships, I don’t think I would have given that advice.

Yeah I’d be asking for my drinks to be "shaken, not stirred" if we could transform into whoever we want to be!

What are you doing to find out?

reading, follow advice, and going through the motions with a fake smile.
and yet many guys who are less physically attractive and less successful professionally can talk to women with no problems and have their pick of women to date
and don’t turn to alcohol, or you may well have to add a drinking problem to your list of woes

i’ve done this, and lost the pleasure of casual drinking as a result

Try. Fail. Observe the successful person who jumps into the hole left by your failure. Learn from it. Repeat as necessary.

I’m not a bar kinda guy, but the huge advantage to bars is that they’re chock-full of people who don’t give a shit about you, so you can totally fuck up and nobody will remember the next time you stop in for a practice session. Eventually, you’ll learn how to keep their attention on you despite all the other distractions, and at that point, you can stop going to bars and start going to places with people you actually want to be around without worrying about making a fool of yourself.

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Met this wonderful girl back in 2005, when i met her I knew she was the one, never ever ever felt that strong for someone, and that connected right out of the gates. 06 was a hard year, i got in a terrible car accident, lost my job, and started to head into depression. She stuck with me through it all going above and beyond.

2007 was the worst, i had family members die in a plane crash, one die from cancer, finishing up my last year in college had me under some stress, and the depression that started at the end of 06 was full fledged in 2007. I was under different medications that made me act in various ways, and still she stuck with me eventhough i wasn’t the nicest and became very selfish. (we broke up march 07, but planned to work things out)

08 comes I finally felt like I turned the corner, planned to ask her to get back together on new years eve, as a great surprise. She completely stood me up, and wouldn’t answer her phone or anything of that nature.. I sent her a pretty pissed off email which she said kept her from calling me back. I don’t see her for two weeks, when we do we get in a huge argument she leaves calls me a few days later and says she doesn’t want to try things anymore.(first week of feb)

I convinced her to spend time with me for valentines day and we did, things were great for the next week and a half, she asked me if i wanted to get back together with her, I said idid but that i wanted to give her a few more days to make sure things were right for her. (bad mistake i guess)

4 days later she said she couldn’t try with me anymore, and no longer wanted to get back together..

*side notes*
She is now going through depression, which I feel is a result of having to deal with me, and her giving her all trying to help me out. Her family hates me (interacial situation) her friends are telling her to move on, she is planning on going back to school in DE, and I am planning to move to Co.

She says the reason she didnt show up for new years, and started acting weird afterwards was because she had a miscarriage and felt like she couldn’t talk to me about it, (because of the arguments and issues we had going on at the time) and started hating me for that reason.

She still says she sees us together down the road, hopes we can get there, still loves me etc etc. Also stated that she needs to find herself, meaning she feels as if she is in my position from 07, and does not want to put me through what I put her through. She wants space from me now, and I can’t handle the space… We used to talk 3-5 times a day phone, email, text whatever. Now it is just dead silence, she has a lot of new "friends" and i feel like these new guys have replaced me in her life.

I know i should move on, even with her saying she sees us together in the future, but I still feel like this is worth fighting for. We just spent this past weekend together thurs night till sunday, went out all over town things were great, better than when we were together.. I feel as if that was our last weekend together ever.

Toss me some advice please OT…
I think it’s really time for you to move on even if you believe it’s worth fighting for. You two will be moving away, and it’s only going to make it harder on the relationship. Good luck

Let me break this down for you. THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN. YOU WILL 99% chance NOT END UP TOGETHER.

Her family and friends dislike you, what she is doing says she doesn’t like you…

She’s just trying to be nice and give you an answer to make you go away, and leave her alone. Hence the nice "she still loves you, sees you being together, but needs to find herself first". She may actually find herself, but you are NOT in the big picture.

She’s hoping that by telling you "not right now" you’ll go on, live your life, find someone else, and move on and forget about her.

Get it now?

Yeah that was my initial thought when she first stated it around the start of feb. I straight up asked her if she wanted me to go away, if she was just playing nice to not hurt my feelings etc..

she says no she really does want something…. although it does seem like her answer is starting to change.

And as far as that moving away thing goes, we were both going to move to Co, till this came up, so now we may possibly be moving apart, i’m trying to see what is going to happen in the short run to see if i should move out there or stay near her to see what will happen.. All in all I feel like a big dumbass in this situation, I broke up with her, I hurt her (even if i didnt know what was going on during my depression) now i lost a wonderful girl, and i feel like she is just putting up with me.

I know i should leave her alone but i do not know how to, everything in my life crosses her path in some form.
You need to handle the space, you need to get friends to replace her. Eventually she may come to talk to you herself or she may never talk to you. Either way, you need to keep moving in life.

The best answer to this is to convey indifference. Whenever you see her, ignore her. Simple. It sounds easy but it’s going to be very hard. If everything in your life crosses with her, just ignore her.

yeah I will try.. She asked for space starting last monday, then she talked to me in some form every day since then.. Then told me again this past weekend she wanted space, and proceeded to call me monday, and has emailed me a few times today here at work..

Its like I keep getting tugged in different directions.. I almost feel like if i ignore her that will kill whatever chance I have left.

Well maybes its a different type of space. Maybe she wants space from talking the way you used to. Maybe she wants to talk to you normally but not in-depth. If you get my meaning.

Just treat her the same way she treats you. If she sends you a email, send one back, but don’t get enthusiastic and send lots.

Or you could take the risk and try ignoring her a couple of times, that should give her the "space" she needs.

Evidently she’s confused. She wants space and she wants to talk.

yeah i feel she is confused also. Thank you for the advice keep it coming if you can think of anything else.

this isn’t my biggest concern, but my biggest problem right now is thinking about her and dealing with this situation is crippling me at work, I am not really getting anything done, and I haven’t been ontime in like 3 weeks.

I really need a way to cope, and my current friends don’t seem like a worthwhile alternative.

Think about how much better you’ll feel when you get your shit together at work. Yeah, the situation is a bitch, but no reason to let her weigh you down in other aspects of your life. Why aren’t your friends a worthwhile alternative?

Seems like everyone is going through some kind of major event at the same time, and at the moment I feel like dating someone else is out of the question. (i’m 26 and everyone is 24-30ish)

my first gf used to tug my emotions around as well; one day being very close and saying how she couldn’t be happy with out me and the next day way distant and hanging around other guys. I didn’t know wtf I was doing so I stayed with that way too long; this road only gets more painful.

Put it this way, this is one of the worse situations to be in, and her doing this only makes you more invested in her. You’re constantly trying to figure out what you need to do to get her back, whether you said the right thing, how to play the game right…all for a girl that doesn’t deserve your time. What eventually helped me get over my ex was no contact; I became a horrible childish asshole in her eyes but a month of not talking to her when I saw her in the three classes we shared made all the difference. Just remember you’re worth having a fulfilling relationship, and if she’s willing to let you go, her loss. Just make it a clean break.

You need a holiday.
You need to join a sports club.

That way you’ll make new friends. Head over to the gym, workout or join a basketball club. Take your mind off things.

Yeah a clean break is going to be really rough, she has been my life for three years, and my idea of my future was based around/involved her.

I have been working out a lot more lately.. and thinking while working out pisses me off more and gives me more workout motivation heh.

a future she has made obvious that she doesn’t want to be a part of, you just can’t see it, we all can. Break it off now and start the healing process, this is just going to get dirty and you’re going to be hung up on her for months.

However I was in the same spot and didn’t end it when it needed to be, so I understand that as well. Good luck man
Yeah, I guess she doesn’t want me to be a part of her future.

**Update***

I sent her an email yesterday, (short version) just letting her know I will be thinking about her ( she is having two surgeries, one is on friday) and to call me if needed.

She replied but only to selective parts of the email.
She called me, but I had left my cell phone at home ( to keep myself from calling her)
I then called her back, and she sounded annoyed and was wondering why I called. Then her "mom" called (she never used to talk to her mom a lot, all of a sudden every time we talk her "Mom" calls or needs her or she has to go meet with her "mom" I know it’s b.s /another guy/an excuse to get away.) so she had to go, but would call me right back… well an hour later she called.. and I didn’t answer (left no voicemail)…

Seriously, I am struggling to not talk to her right now, tried movies, exercise, calling old friends, going out, spending time with this girl that is head over heels for me, but nothing takes my mind off of it. (Yes we are both in our mid 20′s) And I know this part sounds retarded, but she then (later that night) left a comment on my myspace saying a picture of mine was cute, so that has my thoughts all over the place.

This shit is rough, I feel bad for not calling her back, because I find it rude not to call someone back. I feel like a dumbass for sending her the email, and calling her back the first time. My goal for today is not to respond to anything she says, I have a feeling she won’t even attempt to contact me though, and that hurts enough on its own.

actually, I’d bet you’ll hear from her occasionally. She doesn’t want to be with you, but she loves the thought of you pining away for her. So she’ll call/email/text every once in awhile just to keep you thinking about her and wanting her.

She’s already doing it.

A few weeks ago Id say I don’t think she’s capable of something like that, since she was always so honest and loving.
The more you want her, the less she wants you.

The less you want her, the more she wants you.

Well now that you put it in perspective…

just joking with you, yeah i know.. that’s the way it goes sometimes.

you’ll soon learn that every person is capable of it. in my experience women can be the vicious ones at the end of a long term relationship. it makes me wonder whether she loved that specific man she was with, or just a man in general. I guess I’ve seen more relationships fail than not where it seemed that the woman considered the man disposable, and was able to move on quickly.

I understand that, and her friends voices in her head probably didnt/don’t help the situation.
Sorry I need to bring this back. I really can’t get my ex out of my head, and she is now saying she wants to try again, meaning try to start over and move forward. We spent last weekend together and nothing negative happened..

The only thing that doesn’t add up is she says she wnats to move forward etc etc.. and she i guess is forgetting I have her email password and i checked yesterday and she just signed up for this like local singles website.. but had herself listed as not looking yet. She said she was just looking for new friends…..

damn I love this girl so much I feel like I am being a big fucking retard though. Second chance and benefit of the doubt? or when in doubt kick the bitch out?
I know what its like to lose a long, meaningful relationship, and I’ve been through a bit of what you are going through as well. I’ve gotten past that, but only through distance and not talking with her anymore.

From what I’ve been reading, she has always had the control of the situation. What you need to do is take control of the situation yourself.

I don’t know if this is good advice or bad advice, so take it with a grain of salt; but if I were in your particular situation with the same feelings, I would give it one more chance, and one chance only. I would tell her straight up that this going back and forth so much is killing me and I can’t take it anymore, this is the last chance I am giving for the relationship.

If it doesn’t work out, or she says no thanks, she never wanted anything strongly enough to begin with. I would cut all ties, change my phone number, my email, and try to get a fresh start in that area of my life.
I know this is hard but you must let her go and get her out of your life. She keeps stringing you along and hurting you. it really isn’t worth the mental damage shes inflicting on you. Also, having her email password isn’t the best idea in the world. You could have found something much worse than her registering at a singles site.

I have been in your shoes and what drove me over the edge was me realizing what she was doing. I erased her number from my cell, changed numbers and moved out of where I was living. It isn’t easy but what in life is?

Don’t do it. She doesn’t really want to "try again, get back together and move forward". IF SHE REALLY WANTED THAT, SHE WOULD HAVE DONE IT EARLIER.

It’s been, what, 2 weeks since you two broke up?

SHE’S FEELING LONELY. THAT’S IT.

If you did try to get back together, it would last about 3 days before she got tired of you again.

STAY AWAY

Oh yeah, lose her email and password, or email her back and ask her to change it. You have absolutely NO business going through someone’s email.

I know, I shouldn’t have done it.. she originally gave it to me she said so i could look and see that she was always telling me the truth.

I know.. i just thought she would have enough respect for me to not string me along, or tell me… I have confronted her about it and she swears she isnt.

She has had control the last two months, before that everything was on my terms.

You are all correct… It’s just hard to let go when someone is saying everything you want to hear.

I was about to change my phone number but I have recently been applying for jobs.. and I am disconnecting my landline, so I listed my current cell as the contact number so I’m kind of stuck there.

So she is basically setting you up to check up on her. Listen, there is either trust or there isn’t. Giving someone private info like that just screams "I’m insecure! Check up on me! Validate me for being good!"
One of the things you need to ask yourself is if she is saying everything you want to hear because she means it or if she is saying it just because thats what she knows you want to hear. I think if you really sit back and think about it you’ll come up with your answer. Use her past actions as a guide to her behavior. You also have to understand yourself. You don’t want to believe that she would be stringing you along because you want to believe that the girl you fell in love with wouldn’t do something like that to you because she cares for you. I’ve been there and I think most of the people here giving you advice have too. Its not easy letting go of someone you had strong feelings for but you need to sit down and really figure out if all this anguish and pain you are going through, this emotional roller coaster is really worth it.

true true. Well starting sunday I will try to make a clean break

would only be worth if if i could see the future and saw that we found a way to get past it and be normal. But I can’t.
I called her today, told her I can’t do this.. had a 2 hour convo. During the convo, she pretty much indirectly made it clear that everything you guys said about her keeping me around was true.

So I’m glad I called her to end this. Now how to keep myself from calling her when i feel alone.

Tip of advice: Nest time this happens, don’t talk to the girl for two hours. Call, say "it’s over" and hang up.

What was some of the crap she was most likely spewing?
Read; enjoy and move on…

—————————————————–
Being dumped sucks.

It is rarely a good experience – no matter how long you’ve been going out, what the nature of your relationship was, or how it ended. The very idea that someone does not want to spend his/her exclusive time with you is a pretty big blow to the ol’ ego.

I have been dumped on many occasions for many reasons, for over a decade. I understand that there are many who have never had a girlfriend, many on their first relationship, and many more with little experience with being dumped. Take my advice as you will, but I can guarantee you that when the day comes (and it probably will), you will be better prepared for it, and hopefully won’t end up being a huge whiny turd.

I give to you:
xxxxxxxx’s guide to being dumped, and taking it like a champ.

Rule 1: The relationship is over.

This is the most important rule of all. You need to go back to it at least once every minute in the aftermath of being dumped. It is the most difficult part, yet it is also the foundation for healing. The day you come to terms with it, is the day things start getting better.

In my experience, there are three basic parts to being dumped: Premonition, dump, after-dump.

Premonition
I have been dumped, and have dumped, lots and lots of times. There has never been an instance where it is random. For every single relationshp, from shortest (2 days) to longest (3 years), there has been a period of time where the breakup is planned. For the person about to get dumped, this period is called premonition. I have always felt a breakup coming, and it is physically a worse feeling than the breakup itself. There is little communication between the couples, an intense feeling of uncertainty, and a strong desire to make it better. The longer the premonition stage lasts, the more apt you are be stupid.

Things to avoid:
Do not go beyond the bounds of your relationship. Don’t start saying, "I love you" if that’s not what you normally do.

Resist the urge to sulk. Do whatever it takes to get your mind away from it. Get the fuck out of bed, go to the gym, go for a walk, find some friends, smoke some pot, do whatever it is that you do to de-stress.

Do not start screwing around. The relationship isn’t over yet. You might get yourself into some serious trouble.

Don’t beat her to the punch, unless you had plans already.

Things to do:
Hey, here’s an idea – talk to her. "Hey, what’s going on with us, things have been kind of wierd lately." Sure, it might lead to breaking up faster, but that’s the point. If it’s going to happen, might as well not torture yourself.

Try working things out. I know, If you really care for the relationship, and she’s not cheating on your sorry ass, there’s room for work. I’ve found that the best times I’ve had were after we’ve worked things out.

Dump

RULE 1: Get ready to go through the 5 stages of loss:

*Denial
*Bargaining
*Anger
*Despair
*Acceptance

It might not happen in that order, it might not involve all the stages. Chances are you’ll experience at least 3 of them, the most popular being bargaining, anger and despair.

*Denial – Try your best to avoid it. Denial doesn’t help resolve anything, makes the whole process very difficult. Remember rule 1.

*Bargaining – Might as well give it a shot. There might be some things that you can reasonably change in the relationship. Give it up after a good shot at it. If it’s over, it’s over.

*Anger – Yup, you’re pissed. Get over it.

*Despair – This is where the crying begins. Now is the time to NOT be pathetic. There’s nothing wrong with crying, but don’t make her feel bad for you or pity you. She’ll only be pissed. There is little sympathy when it comes to being dumped, so don’t play that card. More on this in the post-dump section.

*Acceptance – Time to let go, man. REMEMBER Rule 1.

Here’s a quick scenario as to how the whole thing might look:

Girl: Things aren’t working out.
Boy: Are you sure? I thought things were fine.
Girl: No.
Boy: Well, is there anything we can do to make things better?
Girl: I just don’t want to be in a relationship anymore.
Boy: But you were the one who wanted to be in one in the first place! Who put you up to this? Is there another guy? I’ll fucking kill him.
Girl: [insert despair]
Boy: [insert despair]
Boy: Well, if this is what you want, and if this feels right, and there’s nothing I can do or say to change it, then we might as well let it happen.

See? That wasn’t so bad. This is a really good time for some Q and A, especially since you’ll want to know some of the answers in the post-dump phase. Here is a short list of questions you should ask now, while you’re still communicating:

*Is there anything I can do to make this relationship work?
*Is there anything I could have done to make things better?
*What made you decide to do this?
*Is there someone else involved?
*Is there anything I can do to avoid pissing off future girlfriends?
*When did things start to suck? What caused it?

This is a very short list, and you should tailor it to your needs in the premonition phase. If you can get all your important questions answered, it will make life easier in the next phase.

***Also, be sure to indicate that you don’t want to see/talk to her for a while. This is KEY. More on this in the next section.

Post-Dump

Nearly a decade has taught me one important thing: This is a very long phase. You need to accept this.

Ok, you just got dumped. Let the emotion out the best way you know. Cry if you have to, beat the shit out of something, go for a run. Be a man, and find someone to give you a hug. Talk it through with your close friends (not hers). Set some kind of time limit. Say to yourself, "I’m going to be a pile of emotional shit for the next hour, then I’m going to start picking myself up." Stick to it, if you’re a sulking mess for too long no one is going to want to hear about it.

Inform your friends. People ought to know to be careful around you. If they care about you, they’ll help you cope. Put away blatant reminders of her – her pictures, her underwear, her lifesize blowup doll etc.

Go out, live life normally, DO NOT DO ANYTHING RASH. Joining the Army doesn’t help, running away doesn’t help!!! you won’t get her back if you get into a car accident/attempt suicide, you certainly won’t get her back if you vandalize her property. Don’t fuck her sister/friends, don’t go beating up some kid who you think might be her new boyfriend. Use Rule 1 folks, it really puts things into perspective.

Just go on with your life. That’s the only thing you can do to really take it like a champ. There’s a huge list if things you shouldn’t do, because they’re very annoying, and you’ll feel stupid about it later.

Spend lots and lots of time away from her. This is actually a strange situation. Say you spend 4 months away from her and are feeling great. The next time you see her, it’ll take you back about 2 months. Then you’ll recover, and the next time you see her it’ll take you back 1 month. Then 2 weeks. Then 1 week. See what I’m getting at? Recovery is a long process, and there will be setbacks. Don’t think it’ll be peaches and cream the first time you see her with another guy. Try to avoid her socially until you’re certain things are ok. This may take months or years. Rarely weeks. This is why avoidance is key. You don’t need to go out of your way to avoid her, just let her know that for a while, you don’t want to see her.

Don’t play the pity card. Yes, you’re upset and hurt and heartbroken. Tell it to your friends, not to her or her friends. Avoid putting up depressing away messages, profiles, blogs, or anything of the like. Understandably, you want her to know how much she hurt you. It does you little good to do that, remember rule 1? Don’t go to the same party as her and sit in the corner looking all depressed. She’s not going to want you back, you pansy.

Don’t go visit her. First of all, it will hurt like a mofo. Secondly, girls are evil and will do shitty things like hug you, cuddle with you, tell you how much they miss you, or hit you with pepper spray. Rule 1 – it still applies. She doesn’t want to be with you, just wants to make herself feel a little better. If she wants to come back to you, she’ll call you up and say so. Being around her is most likely going to annoy her and make you feel really shitty. Girls have also been known to employ the use of a guy named Todd, who is only there to make you turn emo.

Don’t start looking for answers. If you’re smart, you already asked them when you two were breaking up. Don’t call/IM/email/fox her friends. Yes, they’re close to her and they know what’s going on. Chances are, they won’t tell you what you need to know. They’re her friends first, yours second. I’m letting you know now – if you do take this path, you will find out nothing of any use. Do you really want to know if she’s seeing someone else? Do you really want to know if she is in bed crying because she misses you? Back to Rule 1. She’s going through her own healing process, she doesn’t want to be in a relationship with you. Let it go, man. Her friends will report their findings to her, and she’ll hate you for snooping.

On a similar note – DON’T FUCKING STALK HER.

The above is the basic foundation for taking a dumping like a champ. There are many little nuances that I can’t remember and didn’t cover, so be prepared for anything. The only thing I can guarantee is that life will get better and you’ll move on.
—————————————————

Pay particularly close attention to the post-dump section. And never forget about rule number one.

I was in a 6 year relationship that ended ~2 months ago. I’ve followed this advice and cannot believe how good I’m doing right now.

Hope this helped.
The best "revenge" is living well.

/thread

Quoted for truth.
Success will be the best revenge . . . go fuck 10 girls, then tell me you still miss her.

Girl one so far = massive epic fail.

I have been more of myself the last week or so. I still get down every once in a while.. took her number out of my phone.. she calls me and emails me out of the blue.. with I miss you and I love you and etc.

Its starting to piss me off.. I’m like you miss me? want to hang out? her: "oh no im busy, no i’m going out of town etc.." Me: quit lying then.

Good read, everyone kind of said different parts of this maybe not all of it.. but sometimes I guess it just matters on how the info was presented, as to how it will be received..

I don’t remember the last time I posted. I think it has almost been a week, I took two weeks off from work, went to visit the folks, hanging out with some friends.. exercising, long walks, etc.. can’t find anything that makes me happy, just trying to find something to fill the time.

I am normally a pessimistic/bitter person so she is creating her own private hate-filled spot in my heart. I am starting ot see the games, and seeing how she comes to me for attention.. maybe she does care.. if she does she is going about it the wrong way..

Anyways.. thanks for checking back/posting more in my thread.. I will check back again.

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My ex (only ex) has been pretty much emotionally abusing me since I transferred away to a 4 year school. Well, she’s pretty much ALWAYS done this more or less. Cheating in all sense of the word. Chronic liar. I’m too weak to have really done anything about it. Although I did break up with her before going to school, I did keep going back to her during breaks. Every time she swore to me nothing was going on or this or that. Every time I’d find out she was dating some other guy or slept with some other guy or went back to some other guy. Every time she would make me feel like a piece of shit because I was skeptical. And almost every time I turned out to be right.

So this went on all year. It’s pretty much battered me emotionally. Not only that, but I haven’t made any friends here and a lot of my previous friends have faded out, turned into different people or decided I’m too much of a bummer to remain friends with.

So to get any kind of social contact, I started playing WoW again. It’s a pretty pathetic fix for social contact, I’ve got to be honest. That and it totally killed my drive to do anything else, not that it was super strong to begin with. So, this last semester I’ve completely failed all my classes.

Oh and at the beginning of the semester I got in the first accident I’ve ever been in in 8 years of driving. Now, I have money problems. It’s not really that I’m in debt. I don’t use credit cards. I only have my car loan (of which the value of my car greatly exceeds the current balance of the loan) and some small student loans. But my checking account is empty. I don’t even have enough money to pay for the gas to get home now that the semester is over.

So here I am, I’ve been in my room at school (semester is over) and I haven’t done anything for 2 weeks but play WoW and hide from people. None of the people that I still think might be my friends have called me. My grandparent’s have called me a couple times but I don’t have the heart to talk to them and worry them about anything. I don’t know when or if I’m going home. I’d rather just end the anxiety and depression.

I’ve had a problem with depression since probably middle school. My ex gave me a bit of happiness while I was with her but it was bittersweet as soon as I started finding out about the deceptions. I’ve always thought about suicide, but I fail at even being able to formulate a plan for it. I’m scared and I really do think there wonderful things about life, I just don’t think I’ll personally ever achieve them.

I have no interest in taking drugs. I don’t know if I’ve been manipulated, but I don’t like the idea of what happens to people on antidepressants or any kind of drug like that. If I can’t ok with life as myself, I don’t want to be at all.

This is probably just a waste of server space and way too long to read. Also, it’s probably just like everyone else’s problems. Thanks if you even opened the thread anyway.
All I can recommend is

Your attachments are the sources of your sufferings.

Basically, there is a Buddhist side that needs to be there.

I’ve been cheated on. You’re seeing the worse side of life. WoW and a cheating girlfriend… been there, done that… didn’t get the t-shirt. But I did become a Gnostic, and find out so much about myself through my suffering, that I like to live.

And this suicide talk. Come on man, people have had half their face blown off in wars and still come home a hero and live a good 70 years, with no fucking face at all.

Dude in Russia had his face bitten off by a bear and he is still alive.

His face man, his face!

Like you did get screwed around a lot, of course, but taking your life over it? Cmon now.
Let it go, you know you can do better and you will.

Try getting out and meeting new people, it can be very hard at first, but you will feel so much better once you have some interaction other than computer games. Get some outside time, go for a run or a bike ride, play basketball or something with some friends, it helps to clear your head of all the negative crap going on.
To add to that, go the gym like crazy and observe objects and your relation to the object without thinking, and do that for like four months until you have your head clear and healthy.

I mean we are giving PRACTICAL ADVICE THAT USUALLY WORKS here…
i think that you should pick up the phone from your grandparents, it’d be good for you to hear the voices of those that love you, for some that is motivating factor in itself. i would obviously try and ask your grandparents for a train ride ticket home or something maybe, and than as stated, do better man. Look beyond that girl, a second of bliss isn’t worth the years of pain, no matter what poets insist. If you like sports, i know at my school there is always people playing basketball and people will ask you to join, and they meet like once or twice a week, so try to get on that and build friends?

I’m scared and I really do think there wonderful things about life, I just don’t think I’ll personally ever achieve them.

Yeah you will, don’t shoot down the concept of happiness when you are just beginning to smile. Don’t let the reason for not improving be because a lack of motivation, if you understand that there are wonder things about life, use that to experience them. If you love nature, make a habbit to try and find a trail this break and go biking, if you love movies, make a list of movies you must rewatch or see that are coming out.

"Life offers you flakes of gold, but, you have to go out and grab them" a mentor of Christopher.

I have been where you are. I started the long road to recovery years ago, and I’m starting to feel better.

Your feelings are not your fault. The depression is controlling you. The fact that you wrote all of that out to us at all tells us that you’re hurting, and that you don’t want to hurt. It’s okay to feel that way. But it’s also okay to not want to feel that way, too.

Please don’t hurt yourself. I’ve been suicidal too, and it’s just because you’re scared. The fear and sadness is okay. You aren’t weird. You just need some outside help and love to get you past this.

I googled Issaquah and found a crisis center that will be able to help you. They won’t judge and they will listen to what is going on, not only with the suicidal feelings, but about your troubles with your ex.

24 – Hour Crisis Line

(866.427.4747)
206.461.3222

Please call the number and talk to them. I would call it for you if I knew you, because I would want you not to hurt any more. Please don’t die.

Thanks for that crisis line. I was actually looking for something like that previously when I felt this way and had no one to talk to.

I think working out at the gym is probably a good idea, but I am also probably too self conscious. Also it’s not even the biggest stressor right now. I still have to figure out how I’m going to get home and get my finances and academic life back on track.

I feel a little better since talking to a member of this forum on aim. I didn’t actually get to sleep until 8 am this morning though. I hope this doesn’t happen every night.

Thanks for reading and the helpful words everyone.
It doesn’t seem like it will work, and it will probably take every bit of drive to get going, but start exercising. Go for a run, it will honestly invigorate you and help to release the chemicals and endorphins that your body and mind need. I know it seems pointless and impossible, but you have nothing to lose. If you’re self-conscious, run at night (in a safe place). It actually feels wonderful once you are able to convince yourself to get outside. Humans are creatures of habit, so the habits you form (whether good or bad) are going to be hard to break. Work on trying to create a healthy habit.

Once you are able to invigorate yourself even just a little bit you will find that it is easier to believe in yourself and gain just a little bit more confidence. It can build from there.

Don’t do it for anyone else, do it for yourself. If it helps, a lot of us have hit rock-bottom too, and most of us aren’t really that far from rock-bottom most of the time anyway. It is also not a bad idea to talk to a doctor. Sometimes people need a little help to get back up and ready to face the world, and doctors can give you that help.

I’m sorry if this sounds like a self-help manual, but I’m only trying to give you advice that seems to be working for me.
I would seek therapy, but I have no health insurance and no money :

Look for a community health center….since you’re in school, check to see if your school has any counseling/mental health services. Schools usually offer them for free.

It’s trite, but I’ve been where you are….still dealing with it now. It gets better eventually.
most of us have been on rock bottom, and all i can say is most of the advice/support in here is motivating.

please dont hurt yourself or do anything rash, and remember, if you feel your on rock bottom, there is nowhere to go but up with new friends and getting over your cheating SO.

we’re all here for you!
I canceled WoW. I got my car back and my apartment is clean and ready for me to move out.

I’ve got some friends back home that will hopefully hang out with me and make me feel better socially. Now I have to figure out how to get home. I am completely broke and I’ll have to find a job immediately when I get home. Preferably not retail and min wage. I came out of the IT industry before going back to school, so going back to a high school type job would suck.

Also, ex is still on my mind. Doing whatever she wants to fulfill her selfish need for attention and nothing else. Ugh.

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At this point you basically have 2 options. Either escalate the situation to a fight because he just physically made an aggressive move on you and you have to stand up for yourself, or you can just back down to avoid the confrontation. I read all these "guides" on OT that the nice guy always avoids the confrontation and I don’t want to come off as some spineless wimp. At the same time, I don’t want to fight someone over something as stupid as this. I’ve been in these situations before and when you get 2 aggressive people like that and one of them escalates the situation then the other will follow suite and there WILL be a fight.

So my questions are: where do you draw the line? When do you walk away? How do you send a message that you won’t tolerate being pushed around without actually fighting someone?

THIS IS A GUY ONLY QUESTION!

Because women don’t understand the machismo mind OR play basketball with overly aggressive people.
Being the better man might make you look like a ‘pussy’ to the tough guys, but they have the anger problem that probably affects many of their personal relationships, not you.

Just be the better guy and back off.
Ugh I hate players like that…

Personally I just keep going by doing little annoying things or make them feel uncomfortable. I don’t know I do it for my own self enjoyment but when I drive people over the edge they get fed up and just walk away. I’m a pretty big guy so I think I can get away with this type of abuse…

If I was in your situation I would have just kept the ball from their team for as long as I can and when they start saying something, do a halfcourt shot (it fucking ANNOYS them when you make it). Make gay innuendos. Seriously, don’t let shit talkers and players like that ruin the game for you. You ruin it for them. Most of the time when I’m in pickups with friends and we come across a group like that, we flip the switch and start fucking around. Don’t give them the satisfaction like you’re trying, just clown. I’d like to learn to whistle the Harlem Globe Trotters theme but I can’t whistle.

If it starts to get real bad just get ahead by one point, declare yourselves the winner, and walk away.
you can’t allow your opponent to physically intimidate you in this manner

you should have continued to guard him the same way, and make him change his strategy if he wants to score

that’s basically the question. I backed off because the guy wasn’t very level headed. And I can’t decide if it’s worth getting into a fight over something dumb like this. You say it’s worth it?
Ugh that’s why I hate basketball. Such a bullshit sport. Someone always crying about something.

thanks for stating the obvious

if he wants to escalate it into a fight let him go to jail for it. Or you can kick his ass and then claim self defense

hmmm maybe not but I definitely wouldn’t be playing basketball with the guy again.
He got what he wanted….you backed off and then he was able to do what he wanted more. It’s a known tactic in sports.

This was likely a friendly type game as opposed to a paid job. If that’s correct then yeah, I think fighting over something like this is a joke and absolutely unacceptable. If you’re at a local gym and you fight, they might revoke you membership. If it’s a paid gig, you could use this against him…..and continue to piss him off and get him to throw a punch and get booted from the game….just be sure to duck.

There are thing in life that are totally worth fighting over. Basketball games? OMFG!! You can’t be serious here? uh the answer is NO…it’s not worth it.

You said, "… I don’t want to come off as some spineless wimp…." This is all about your ego. I’ve seen ego get more people in trouble than anything. Nothing about whether or not you fought this guy has any bearing on your life. It won’t help you get a better job (unless you want a tough guy job), it won’t help you make friends (unless you want to be accepted as a tough guy), and it certainly won’t help you get laid….oh wait….it may help with getting laid but that’s a different thread.

Exactly….this is the long term solution. Just find other people to play with, people that don’t keep it all in perspective.
Tell him if he’s fouling you then he needs to CALL IT. Let him look like a pussy in front of everyone for calling foul everytime he gets the ball.

if you think he’s crazy enough to do you harm, quit the game

i would quit the game before i would alter my style of defense
Considering it’s just a game, and not at any place you paid for the time/usage…I would not waste my time with someone who wanted to be like that.

If a guy wants to be an idiot, fine, he can do it by himself…I’ve got better things to do than enable idiots.
I would keep playing and not change up my defensive style. If he says its a foul, he has to call it so everyone can hear it, otherwise its legit.

Honestly if a person is a dick player like that, in my group of friends we just do not ask them back to play with us.

I recently had someone start something with me over a game, I kept my cool and he flipped out. In the end he just made himself look like a huge asshole to everyone and when he wanted to play again next week. The group just told him we had enough players.
I love when players assume you’re fouling them when they can’t play against good defense

No, because the way a woman deals with an aggressive man is totally inappropriate for another man to employ.

Cry about equality all you want, but men and women aren’t the same and they never will be.

easiest solution in that scenario. getting into a physical altercation over it is silly, but no need to back down either. play your game and if he thinks its a foul, let him call it and proceed from there. after he calls foul a couple of times, some of the other people playing will either tell you to back down or tell the other guy to stop being a pussy.

when to fight, walk away, diffuse the situation, etc. will depend greatly on the what scenario is playing out. this seems like a diffuse the situation type of scenario. use humor or peer pressure.

.
the other day i came out of my new apartment, asked a random guy a question about something.

he was about 4 inches taller than me and overweight but not fat. at least 285 pounds. i’m 5"9 at about 140, so he was twice my mass.

after i got his advice he then came back a second later. he put a massive paw on my shoulder and held it there while explaining that he had weed available.

i just acted like it was friendly. i acted like he was being affectionate in the way certain guys are physically affectionate towards each other despite being straight & American*.

* (physical affection being borderline weird for some straight males in our country)

he told me he also had a club down the street. so far, so friendly. then he asked me which bell I was. I thought that was creepy. I also didn’t really get what he was asking, or wasn’t sure. he repeated the question. given that he saw the door I had come out of, there was something non-factual about his question, like he was asking the question more to get an answer from me than to learn something. i told him which bell i was. his arm was on me the whole time.

he said he’d see me around… walked off, told me "it’s cool, i’ll be back. i’ll back," he said. "i’ll be back."

the whole thing had a vague hint of joking-menace.

the reason it’s completely different for girls is because their given PHYSICAL role is the Protected, and it is socially appropriate for girls to behave as if they are (PHYSICALLY speaking) the Protected, and to shame a man who treats them with physical threat, by acting huffy, fed up, miffed, and whatnot. sure, it’s not a physical win, but it’s GIVEN that no physical win is possible, and almost BECAUSE of that, it’s a win. "wtf are you doing? get your mitts off me, I can’t defend myself against you, so shame on you!" that’s the subtext.

it’s different for guys because that’s not the role we are given. in fact, playing that role would be really weird and bizarre for a straight, American male.

and yet, escalating to a fight – the opposite approach – makes you the loser in a million ways, too. for one thing, you might lose the fight. for another thing, the injuries are not payment for anything useful because you get nothing significantly positive out of it.

ultimately, i think the only thing i could have done was to shake it off…

yeah, the guy’s bigger than me, but we knew that already without him actually going ahead and proving it like he wanted to shove my shit in my face.

dorky, ego-feeding malevolence – there’s not much i can do about it.

the important thing is that it doesn’t translate into how hot the girls i fuck are vs. how hot the girls he fucks are. in this day and age, it’s the survival of the smoothest. and if it’s clear that there’s nothing i can do about it, and he’s just being malevolent… his social value plummets. this is where his gf, had he one, walks off in a huff because "he’s doing it again." so let him put on his ridiculous little show.

i guess i just recognize when someone can have their way with me physically. then, if they feel the need to shove that in my face, something which was obvious without them even doing so, i just recognize that that is retarded, and that that is just the way it is. so just being friendly and taking a "this too shall pass" approach seems like the right answer.

i think there’s a zen to it that i need to learn.

there are also martial arts, but i’m not sure it’s worth the time commitment to me.
i didnt read the entire thread but from what i’ve encountered its much better when they start getting physical to start getting logical. turn it into a debate instead of a fight, in general the dudes that look for fights like that arent the brightest.

that would work for me in any other context.

all my ability to verbalize logic vanishes as soon as there is a confrontation of this sort.

thats how i was growing up. i was an honor student but i had a crazy mean streak and turned into the hulk everytime someone picked on me. all logic went out the window and i’d just start swinging. then as I got older and went from being 5’1" in my freshman year to 6’2" my senior year, kids kinda stopped picking on me and i just didnt have to fight anymore. now when i ride my bike and get shit from drivers i tend to just throw a witty comment their way.. only time i actually turn into the hulk anymore is when a driver tries to purposely run me off the road or hurt me.

Funny thing is….watch UFC. Some of the most bad ass dudes on there are amazingly normal when they are out of the ring….not crazy nor do they often act aggressive.

If someone picks a fight with them…they’re in for a rude surprise.

I don’t know if I agree with this exactly, but my approach would’ve been "I’m fouling you because that’s the fucking point of the game. Stop acting like I’m doing it because I don’t like you; I’m just doing my job as a guard." I think it’s a similar approach to what you’re talking about.
Don’t let him scare you, he just wants to get in your head. I played against a guy who couldn’t post me up to save his life, he was pathetic. As he tried to come up to knock a post feed away from me, his face ran into my hand and he said I was garbage. He kept talking shit so I just laughed at him. Went down the court, hit a jump shot. Asked him who is garbage. He went down and tried to answer but I gave him no room to breath. Went down again and posted him up and hit a hook shot over him. Repeated this again. Then again. Then the next 2 times I did it over some possible future college basketball player, some 6’8" kid. I just looked at that guy after I hit my 6th straight shot and started running my mouth.

When people try to play aggressive with me because im 6’5" 190, I play back even more aggressive. I can’t be pushed around as easily as you think.

And the ironic part, is I don’t think you could find a rec ball player with a shorter temper than I have.

Like I said, don’t hit anyone over a game of basketball. Not even I would consider that route. But talk back, run your mouth, tell him he isn’t Lebron James and that he can’t get away with 5 step travels every time down the court and to work on his ability to create a shot without having to push off. The fact you did nothing made him the better player on the court that day in his own mind. You need to set his ass straight by running your mouth just as much and continuing to play aggressive.
some days i like to show up a little later than normal, scout the loudest talker from the team i am about to play, and i’ll pick him up on defense. i like to tell him before hand that he isn’t about to score anything. then he laughs. then he realizes that you probably need to have a scholly someone in order to actually get open on me.

One kid laughed at me. In the middle of the game told me he hopes I have good endurance. I told him I hope he has a scholly to Kentucky. At the end of the game, I had only 2…3 points, he had 0. Game before he had about 5….6. He came up to me later, patted me on the back and says "god damn white boy you were right. good defense."

.

A scholarship is an award of access to an institution, or a financial aid award for an individual student scholar, for the purpose of furthering their education. Scholarships are awarded based on a range of criteria which usually reflect the values and purposes of the donor or founder of the award.

AKA, this man never paid for a book or living expenses a day in his college life

aha. so is a scholarship related in any way to a scholly?

thats me being lazy and not wanting to type it out in full

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so i met my wife in november of 2004. i had just broken up with the last in a string of asian chicks (all filipinos, actually). i had seen [ill just say wife] around my apartments from time to time, mostly in the parking lot going to or from her apartment (which i didnt know which one it was, it was out of my view). eventually, i ran into her at the mailboxes. i thought he had a man (as i had seen her driving more than one vehicle, and was sure i had seen her coming or going with someone), but i didnt care that day. as i said, i was just off an asian, and felt like hitting on someone. she was happy to flirt back, and we parted from the mailboxes.

some time passed, and i think it was about january when i finally saw her again. this time, we met at the laundry. i forgot something i needed, and asked if she wouldnt mind watching my stuff for me while i ran back to my apartment. she readily agreed, and when i came back, we had quite a long bit of conversation.

a bit more time passed, and soon i saw her outside cleaning out her car. hmm…. there are 2 kids with her… not good…. but since i already had some raport built up with her, i went over anyway (maybe i was obliged, since i was back from cleaning my own truck anyway). turned out, the older kid was her little brother, but the 16 month old was her son. cute kid too. ok, not bad, i thought. so i asked got her number, and soon we made plans. this would have been february, and we went out to dinner saturday, the saturday after valentines day.

by march, we were a couple. turns out, she admits that the mailbox, agreeing to watch my stuff in the laundry, and cleaning her car were all contrived by her for opportunities to talk to me. apparently, i was "the cute guy with the awesome red truck" in the apartments, and she cant believe shes here, with me. thumbs up, so far.

so, some funny things that a white man learns about hispanic women. 1) apparently, many of them prefer to sleep in same bed as their children.

so time passes, and im thinking about asking her to to get married. shes smarter than any of the other women ive dated. she was done with her crazy partying all the time, and she was much more mature (thru the terrible loss of her first son, killed by another man she was with at the time, this was many years before she and i met) to the ways of the world. she just didnt seem naive.

so i was ready to buy a ring, but my yearly camping trip vacation was here. i was on my way out of town, and she called me crying. she had just wrecked her car. i was about 40 miles away, sitting in outbound dallas traffic, but i turned around immediately, and came to her aid. her car was mangled on the front, but were able to drive it home.

i was already in love with her by this point. instead of vacation that day, after i got her home to my apartment, i left for a while, and went and found a diamond ring, and spend my vacation money on that. i bought it back home and proposed to her, and she accepted on the spot.

as i recall these details from a few years ago, i cannot remember if i already knew this other VERY important detail, but when she told me, it didnt matter, i was already 100% committed to her and her son. but as i said, i dont remember if i already knew, or if she told me this day, or soon after, that she was an illegal immigrant. she was brought here when she was 5, and has lived here, gone to school here, had children, and fallen in love here. 18 years, here illegally. as i said, this wasnt an issue for me. i did realize what a challence it would be to overcome this, but i was committed.

so, late 2005, we got married. we honeymooned in san antonio in a posh honeymoon suite over looking the riverwalk. we got back to dallas, life was grand. we had upgraded to a larger apartment, which we painted together right before we moved in. her son now had his own room, because i kind of imposed a ‘white-people-tradition’ on her.. that kids dont sleep in momm and daddys bed. it didnt seem to be a problem.

a few months into it, we finally reach our first test. we were piss poor, but her mom was having some sickness that wasnt going away in a normal amount of time. her deadbeat husband apparently wasnt giving her money to go to a doctor. we had a few hundred bucks put back, and i loved her mother dearly, and would not have denied her our gift. but i was silently outraged that her moms husband was refusing to take care of his responsibility. why were we to be forced to do his duty? this was causing a rift between my wife and i, because i was questioning her mom’s husbands duty, and that taking care of this in his place was going to put an undue financial burden on us, when this clearly should be resting on another responsible party. in the end, her moms husband stepped up and did the right thing. my wife and i got thru it, and i think (i hope) she learned that my first loyalty is to her and her son and our security, and then to anyone else who needs our assistance. and the whole thing was not that i wasnt willing to take care of her mom, but that this burden really should have fallen to someone else. anyway, we got thru that.

more time passes, im making more money, and i upgrade us again from our 800 square foot apartment, to one that is 1400, and in a really nice part of town. we originally both lived in the a ghetto part of town, mostly hispanics, some blacks, but a fiarly low income area. by the time we moved, i was carrying my pistol around with me when i walked around at night, and thats not right i decided. so i moved us to a totally pimp apartment on the other side of town. life was good.

so, im a full time systems administrator. i have a lot of computers, and this was nothing new to my wife, since the first day she visited me. i do spent a good bit of time at the computer when im home. rarely playing games, but 95% of the time im working on skills that i can turn around and market back to my clients. not long after we moved to our new huge apartment, i was promoted at work. the funds that were being used to pay for our apartment, were now covered by my higher income, and more budget opened up. about a year after that, i also opened up my own consulting business, and started taking jobs on weekends, and weeknights. our income sored from about 65K, to 100K. almost all our debts were paid, and we dreamed of owning our own house.

between all that, were vacations, trips to my parents house for holidays, huge hispanic birthday parties (both at hour house, and attending at her million family members). life was just generally good.

but about 18 months ago, we finally hit a snag. she was tired of the time i spent on the computer. she was probably right, im sure it was getting to be 3-4 hours a week night. but my consulting business was really taking off, and i was working my ass off to pay for this lavish lifestyle that. anyway, she was apparently ready to leave me, but at the last moment she changed her mind. she didnt tell me exactly what was wrong, but that it had something to do with how much time i spent on the computer. oh well, general-explanation was all i got. i curtailed my computer time right there, cold turkey.

over the next few months, when i would head to the computer room, she would say "… there he goes… to that computer again!" to which i would show visible intent to not go there if she really needed or wanted me to do something else, but it was always "nah, im just joking baby, you can do some computer a while, ill call for you when my spanish soaps finish". hindsight 20-20, this was probably a hint… but i dont deal in hints. i say what i mean and i mean what i say, and i suppose i expected my wife to do the same.

so more time passes. weve been talking about having a baby during 2007, and in october, we were visiting my parents house in houston. we sat in my old bedroom, and had a very intimate talk about our year, getting over that problem we had, and how that if we always communicate and work together, there will be no problem we cant ever get thru. we were both on the same page, and decided that january of 2008 we would start trying to have a baby. we were both sure we were as solid as can be.

so by now, we pretty much have our routines.

monday-friday, leave at 715am, drop son at school, i drop her at her job, and i work until 415. at whch time i drive to pick her up, and then to school to pick up son. get home about 515. cartoons for son while either make love or prepare dinner. after dinner (heh, sometimes frozen or ordering pizza!), bathtime for son. after bath, she would sit down to spanish tv. i dont speak a lick of spanish, so that was my time to head to the computer room. there he goes on that computer again.

weekends, we would usually get up early on saturday, and by about 9am i would drive her and son over to her moms, to spend the day doing whatever it is they do. they would sometimes go shop, sometimes go visit other realatives, etc etc. she rarely asked me to come along, so i would usually go back home and nap in the silence, or tinker on the computer or my classic pickup truck.

sundays, we would usually go to church, and get home and relax. last few months we would work intrips to chuckecheeses or trips to the park, or other things we could do as a family. she of course has her hobbies too, scrapbooking and other artsy things like that.

but in january of 2008, she starts going on these emotional up and downs. shes ready to leave, shes totally in love. shes ready to leave, shes totally in love. she’s also been text messaging alot lately with an old highschool friend, who he liked her when they were young, but nothing ever happened becuase they always had others. they were just friends now, and i never had a reason before to not trust my wife. mistake? *shrug*

so first quarter of 08 my wife just starts all this strange behavior. she wants me to change to one of these real cheap cell services here in town. she wants to go to the old clubs she used to go to , with her girl friends. she feels trapped and restrained becuase she doesnt have her own car to drive anymore.

oh yeah… a quick story about the car. she was ticketed for no drivers license, no insurance. $465. her car was wrecked, we sold the hulk for $1000, but we still owed like $3600 on it. Texas surcharched her 2 tickets 3 more times, so by the time that was all done, we were out $4400 bucks, and her car was a write off. more on this later.

so finally, end of march, she comes back, and shes sure that shes in love, and being with me is the best place for her to be, and that im the only man who has never beaten her, never mistreated her, and has taken real and honest care of her. she said ‘im ready to have a baby with you’

but i hit the brakes right there. im too level headed to bring a child into this world with the uncertainty our relationship has displayed recently. i told her, that now im the one who needs time. i need to observe her and see at least a month (really more, but i said month to make it easier) go by of no more of these up and downs. and no, it wasnt her period doing it, as it happened like 4 times in 2 months. it was a real emotional rollercoaster for me, and it was so draining. my coworkers could see my exhaustion.

so speaking of odd behaviors of my wife, she had started getting on the internet more and more. i had been telling her, "that you have to watch out with people on the net. they are usually misrepresented, and are usually there in a predatory mode. just as long as you understand that you cant trust people, and as long as you dont do something to dishonor me or our marriage, i have no problem with you enjoying and using the internet". or something along those lines, like im not going to watch over you every little thing you do. i trusted her, out of love.

getting thru march, its time to renew our lease on our apartment. we agreed, that we would do one more lease, and use the time to save up downpayment on a house. that summer of 2009, we would finally have our dream, and hopefully a child would be arriving soon after that. so the 31st of march, i signed us a new 14 month lease, in our $1250 a month apartment. 31st of march… remember that for in a bit.

april rolls around, shes been getting more and more distant. ive really been making effort to take her out on dates, shopping trips, etc etc. financial times have finally gotten better again. we took on some debt in the middle of last year, now was the time that entertainment budget was opening up again. probably from march to the end of april, i spent $2500 on going out, gifts, family outings, (and stuff for son too). basically, the things i had promised, were coming to fruition.

but things were still not going well. for the month of april, the possilbility of seperation keeps coming up in conversation. if it happened, would we do it as friends and not enemies? i was not keen on the idea at all, and usually i would counter with if you could even ask if were going to be friends or enemies, surely you must be thinking about it already. she never said one way or the other. i continued my devotion to her, however skeptical these bits of conversation were making me. we were making more and more time alone (with son at baby sitter) so we could work on being in love again, and the first friday of may, we had a really really really good date. best, most romantic weve had together in months. but even while we were out, she was still worried that if something happened, that i would hate her. i kept telling her that thinking like that is defeatist, and that we should be working on the here and now.

that friday night we got home to our apartment really late, and we fell into bed together, naked, in each others arms. both exhausted, we went right to sleep. we woke up in the moring, and went straight to pick up son. i confided in her that i wished we had made love the night before, that i really needed her touch badly at that time. our sex life has never been unpleasureable, but lately, ive really felt a lack of affection from her. the glass had been pretty empty lately, and that night, the time would have been right for romantic love. either way, im not a sexaholic, and i felt that just going to sleep was appropriate that night.

saturday the 3rd, we went and spent time with her brother. played basketball at the park, played on the playground with son, yet again, another really good family day. but by the time we got back home again, wife is back in her disparing mood again.

here is another thing. son has been going thru a real disobedient phase lately, both at home and school. hes been a real terror on his teachers. at wifes request, she wants no more spankings (which he really only got for especially horriffic behavior), and wants to change to another method of discipline. i also make some changes in how in interact with son, since i tend to be aggressive when he gets in his "ignore momy and daddy" attitude. i layed off that totally. other things too, i cringe at the way son just eats or spills everything he eats… over the carpet instead of the table. but again, at wifes request, i stopped saying anything about it since she said it was really causing a problem with her. again, this is information im getting, and immediately reacting to in a manner that she says will please her. anyway, sons behavior has been atrocious, but even showing his face to her, she would drop whatever she was doing, and shower him with hugs and kisses. i had been noticing this, and was noting to myself that its been forever since i got anything like that from her.

sunday, i drop her off to visit familiy. typical sunday. im home, doing whatever. that night, she actually calls me to come with the family, they were having a cookout. now that was really REALLY odd, based on how shes been acting towards me lately. she actually WANTS ME???? at first i was happy, but when i arrived, i knew why she called. her mom was there. obviously, she had not talked to her mom one bit about whats going on. at the party, there was a shortage of chairs, and when we shared one, she still sat right ont he edge, 4 inches between us. i actually had to tell her that regardless of whats going on between us, maybe we should act a little but like the couple they expected us to be. that was pretty painful to have to promt her on how to act. at this point, i now know what is up.

that night, she offers herself to me, but i declined. i said that there is too much distance between us right now, and that im unable to make love to her, that i know shes not into it right now. she replied that its a wifes duty to make her body available to her husband. i told her i didnt need her body, i needed her heart. i think that night i went to sleep on the couch, but after a few hours of not being able to sleep, i slipped back into bed (but staying over on my side). this was the first night that we didnt sleep body to body. we ALWAYS slept body to body, and it was fairly painful that we were obviously already seperated.

that morning, not much was said, in the house, or on the way to work. dropped off son, and when we got to her work, i let it out.

"take the car seat, as i wont be home tonight. the apartment is yours until you decide whats going on". i was sheading tears as i said these words, but i felt there was nothing else i could do. ive been to marriage counseling, ive read books on relationships, ive consulted my pastor at church. she came to one counseling session, and read the first 38 pages of one book. nothing else. i was just emotionally exhausted and couldnt take it anymore.

she looked a little in shock that i was doing this, but didnt complain. that afternoon, i went home with a coworker and stayed at his place that night. that was all monday the 5th of may. the next day, i sent her a text message, that i was going by the apartment to pick up shampoo and a few other things i forgot, at lunch time. while i was there, i did something i have never EVER done, the entire time we’ve been married. at a loss of understanding of exactly whats going on here… i searched her computer.

im a professional systems consultant, so it wasnt hard to undelete this and that and bring back the evidence of what she had been doing. since mid march…shes been emailing guys on these social networking sites, with little notes that are less than proper for a married woman. there were 4 or 5 of those little flirty remarks, but then on the tuesday morning… the 2nd day i was gone… she got up early and took some underwear pics and emailed to someone. "these were taken just for you".

i was fucking crushed.

she had allowed me to take pics of her many times, she was so beautiful. i never shared them with anyone, to me, this was just an extension of the intimacy between us. the fact, that she had shared something that was supposed to belong exclusively to me, was a horrific thought to me.

i called the office, and had the locks changed. i had the garage codes changed. i printed out all these emails and such, and waited for the end of the day. i didnt feel quite so bad about changing the locks, becuase after i messaged that i was going home, she said ‘thats fine, im staying at my moms tonight anyway’. so i met her at her office, and asked to speak to her. she looked nervous, and asked do we really have to do this at my work? everyone was already gone anyway, so i said "that inside my truck, no one will have to hear what were talking about".

she gets in, and i ask, "so, red bra and panties today?" she instantly looked like a deer in headlights.

"and who, is [someone]@yahoo.com?" she was caught. she went into defensive mode, and was fairly argumentative to the fact that i told her i was going back to the apartment to stay, and that she would need to call me ahead of time if she were going to be there.

wednesday, i stayed home from work, pretty much unable to function. i shed many tears that day, just still in shock that my wife would look for fullfillment from other men. even if there was no physical affair, there is still an emotional affair happening.

thursday, i filed for divorce. even on the 29th of march… she knew she was already done with this marriage in the middle of march (that was when the emails started), but still she kept her mouth shut and didnt say anything about me signing a 14 month lease on our apartment. on the 2nd… the day of our wonderful date, she sent an email to someone stating that "her former still doesnt want to believe that its over". so painful. "her former".

so a few days later, she comes by to pick up some stuff. she was very very nervous for me to be there, and pretty much just packed while i watched. i wasnt mean to her or anything, and was trying to just get her to finally talk. she did. she finally lets out whats wrong:

im not fun enough.
im always too serious.
im not paying enough attention to her and son.
shes not free to do what she wants, since she doesnt have a car.

these are the things she would not tell me 18 months ago, but she did give me another chance. now, shes telling me how to make her happy… but shes not willing to try to work it out anymore. what a fucking rip!

i told her that having fun is half her job too. shes allowed to make recommendations on where to go tonight, what to go out and do. but never one word out of her ever.

i told her im sorry, but im a man with responsibility. i have a wife who is an illegal immigrant, and every day i have to live with the fear that she will be picked up and deported. i have a small business to run, as well as a managerial postition at my 9-5 job. we have bills out our ass that have to always be paid on time, and budgets have to be maintained in order to continue to not be called by collectors (i was last called by a collectors over a year before she and i met… due to me being SERIOUS… *shrug*). i am unable to ever be irresponsible.

not paying attention. shes got me there. even tho i dont speak a lick of spanish, i would try to get out of the computer room and try to watch, but sometimes i would just stay in the room until she was done. i know i could have played with son some more, but i was working on that with the other parenting changes i had recently made. those changes were solid for a week now, and while i didnt expect them to make up for how ever many months of unhappiness for her, i did hope they would hold some weight with her. but,they didnt matter as far as she was concerend.

finally, her car. yep, its law in texas that you have drivers license and insurance if you want to drive. she has had the drivers license book forever, and even went as far as getting a permit in late 2005, but it never went any further than that. maybe i should have pushed her harder i dont know, but i also let her be free to be her own person. at any rate, i had made a promise to buy her a vehicle, and that time was coming soon. if she had her license, it would be hers… if she didnt… well then i would have 2. and then we would have a vehicle suitable for our new larger family. but she said that without a car, shes not free to just show up at my office and bring me lunch, or just go out and surprise me with this or that.

also, slightly unrelated, i also never called her during the day at her work. im not a mexican man, and i dont need to call to check up on her every 30 minutes. i wanted her to feel trusted, and wanted her to know that i didnt feel the need to keep her chained down or anything like that. apparently, this other guy friend from highschool… has been doing just that, and he has been "paying attention to her", instead of me. well for fucks sake, i can either trust her unquestionably… or lose her to another man who calls her all the time.

so shes back in some run down apartment, same block as we used to live on actually. i went to her a few days after she got in…. shes got that cheap cell service she begged me for months ago (the same one her friend is on.. now texting is free *rolls eyes*). i told her that id like her to come back, and lets work on this properly. that i can make all this disappear, her new apartment lease, her cellphone contract, everything thats a financial block, and come back home and lets work this out. she wouldnt budge, and asked me to respect her decision for the path shes on.

crushed again, i did. i only brought it up one last time, as she moved out her final boxes, and i said how much i regret filing for divorce. did we really mean for all this to get this out of hand? she said "i dont think so". but she still signed the final decree of divorce, and left. (we did have some time of forgiveness the previous time she was there to pick up boxes, for the things that had gone wrong in our relationship…)

so a few weeks have now passed. i went to the apartment manager, and told her whats going on, and at first, she wouldnt budge on the contract. $6000 to buy out, withouht hurting my credit. damn these texas housing contracts. however, a few days later, she comes back, and says that even tho shes not authorized by her boss, shes going to change my least to end on july 31, not sept 09. thank god!!! she didnt even change my rent rate to month-to-month. holy cow, thats a blessing from god, right there if i dont know one! ive since been working with a realtor, and im about to make an offer on a house (bad timing for the wife to leave, i guess).

so now, wife is acting all wierd again. shes being nice and polite. i asked her recently how her apartment is, and she replied "well its not the palace i was living in, but it was all i could afford". she swears shes not seeing anyone, especially that guy-friend from highschool. im not sure i believe her. i dont know why a woman would leave a non-abusive household, earning what we earned together, to trade it for a shit-box lifestyle without having another man to go to. doesnt make sense to me.

unfortunatly, things keep popping out of cabinets that belong to her. i had a hard enough time convincing her that shes entitled to a fair share of our belongings. she was ready to just forfit everything to me (well, the stuff that was hers before we got married she was taking, but i wanted her to at least have half of the stuff we accumulated together). i added up the total of our 3 bank accounts, and drew out an amount of half the cash (which was about 800 bucks… not much to go on for long). i took her a box of stuff last saturday, and just the 2 minutes i was there, put me in a depressive mood. ive been dreaming of her a lot lately too… and these dreams are all good outcomes for our marriage… and to me, all impossible and fictitious. its really painful.

she has also started signing her text messages to me… with the endearing nickname i used to call her. shes either trying to make sure she doesnt get cleaned out of my heart, to make sure her spot stays available… or shes torturing me.

i dont know how ill ever be out there in the dating world again after this. heh, debating now if i should actually even post this. *shrug*
a little bit about me "holding her down" and making live and honor the laws:

before we got married, she never filed a tax return… typical of illegal immigrants. after we got married, i made her start filing.

before we got married, she used her bogus social for this and that, apartment applications, her job, whatever. after we got married, its ITIN on the tax return, and that bogus social is used for nothing else (for the duration of the time it would take to get her immigration status resolved).

but the big one, was my absolute refusal to let her drive without drivers license and insurance. before we married, she just drove her car whereever, without any consideration for what the law says. most all of these examples, i think im finding, that this is just theway the illegal people think.

living lawfully is something thats important to me, and me forcing her to live the way a US citizen does… apparently was a real problem for her.

at least, thats what she says at least. she states that she has no faith that she will ever be a citizen (likely referring to congress lack of activity on the immigration reform).
I thought once you got married that she wouldn’t have been an illegal alien anymore? Once you marry a US citizen you too become a US citizen… or is that not the case anymore?
What you have been going thru isn’t uncommon. Im not blaming you, i just want you to know that for a woman ‘ being together ‘ means everything. And it has got nothing to do with logic, but you ‘spending time behind the computer’ was what made her cheat on you.

Your logic reaction would be. ffs i was doing that for us, for our lives.

You need to understand that her reaction was emotionally illogical to you, but for her, the moments you spend time behind the computer ‘should have been devoted to the time you should have spend on her’.

What you need to understand about woman , they need emotional stabilization and in order to reach this they need to be tuned into an emotionally satisfying setting. So its not about how rich you are, or in what palace you live or how many cars you have that’s important. Your complaints aside because we’ll talk later on that.

Because (and i know it sound fucked up beyond belief) you violated and placed the computer on top of your priority list as opposed in her view as putting her in nr.1 place. Was enough reason for her to emotionally break up with you , see it something as ‘ oh if you can do as you please and spend time on your computer then im allowed to talk to other guys ‘.

You know our family house has been thru something simular in some lines as this. My dad would go upstairs and sit behind the computer, and my mom would be left alone in the room. She felt lonely, but as opposed to your wife, my mom did something different. She dragged my father out of his room and demanded to spend quality time together, no more computer after 9 o clock.

Red im going to tell it to you honestly, this is something you cannot possibly anticipate if you haven’t been thru something like this before. This is a matter of having complete insight , if you knew

im not fun enough.
im always too serious.
im not paying enough attention to her and son.
shes not free to do what she wants, since she doesnt have a car.

In advance, then you might could have saved the relationship a few months ago. You are NOT to be blamed for this lack of insight, she is the one who should have related those feelings towards you, so both of you could have worked on it.

In other words, SHE HAS A PROBLEM, not you. And this is were the frustration begins because anyone who is not you cannot be controlled by you. And that presses on the problem in the relationship of not communicating. And with communicating i don’t mean talking, you two obviously did that , but about conveying her honest feelings towards you.

In terms of effort you did much much more then there was every to be expected in terms of effort,time and sacrifice so for Gods sake don’t start blaming yourself.

Now on how to proceed: You did the right thing by divorcing her, you did not act too quickly about it.

Your complaints were valid, in your situation in order to get stability in your life, you did all the right materialistical and logical moves on how you put things into place into your life. You’ll get a A+++ on that.

But here comes the real problem that men often have, naive and narrow minded. Naive because we think we are in control of the entire situation, while in reality we have no fucking clue on what the girl is thinking or what is happening. Seeing how you gave your wife access to the internet shows how you also fall into that catagory, you know we sometimes look at how backward and primitive Islamic cultures are for not allowing woman to even go outside , the men do that for exactly this kind of reason, namely to prevent that the woman will take off with another guy, and that’s why they forced the woman to wear headscarves just so that other men don’t give those woman attention. Now you dont have to go live in a cave just yet, but you have to understand the concept of self protection. A dog without a leash runs everywhere where it wants, including into the places where it isn’t allowed to be.And Narrow minded in the sense that men don’t pick up subtle hints woman drop, you are also straight forward and being that is just perfectly fine on many area’s , but not when it comes to a womans emotional feelings.

I also changed my thinking. I needed to stop thinking. What you see is what is happening: to ‘ there’s a lot of stuff going on behind my back, that i don’t know off’, that you need to beware off. Its not good if we go into paranoia mode, but we need to be extremely good at information gathering, we need to know as exactly as possible what is going on in the situation before things escalate, in order to prevent really bad stuff from happening.

I can only feel for you because this is more of a future warning then something that helps your current situation. For your current situation i want to say this. At this moment you just want your wife back, emotionally you are extremely strongly bonded to eachothers heart.

My advice tho is to proceed onwards to a life without her, although incomprehensable now, in the long run you two can never trust eachother anymore. I think it also was displayed into the kids behaviour, on not ‘knowing’ who daddy really was, plus having the fucked up genes from his demonical father he has a good likelyhood of probably going to end up being just like his real father.

In reality you are better off without this shit happening to you. What you need now is a cool of period ,were you keep working on improving your own life, and breaking off all contact with your wife.

I definitly suggest you go into theraphy and continue to vent your stories and frustrations in here, its good to let steam out every now and then so to speak.

In the long run if you are ready again and searchin willingly, there will be another woman in your life who is ready for you and worth all the time and effort you put into your future.

Much love and support from the Asylum crew, keep hanging in there, even tho its hard, we are here for you.
It’ll go easier on you if you pack up the things you still have that remind you of her. You don’t have to get rid of them if you don’t want to, but getting them out of your sight will help. Also, rearrange your furniture.
yeah im trying to completely cut off contact, but that wont be possible, at least in some minimal forum, until next tax season is over.

i always justified in my head, that im doing computer stuff while shes watching spanish tv (that i dont understand anyway). she surely didnt see it that way.

right now, i have all her pictures turned around backwards so i dont have to see them day to day. there is actually still a picsframe on out bedroom wall, but its behind a door, and i cant see it.

i did continue to see our marriage therepist after the seperatation, but when i told her that "im ok, im making it, im back at work", she told me im wrong for feeling ok, that im holding in my anger. our session ended early, and she didnt reschedule me. i guess imthe devil or something. *shrug* whatever.

i wish i could rearrange our furniture. im only in this apartment for another 60 days, ill manage until then. the stuff i bought for us is much too large to fit any other way and still be able to walk (or much too heavy, in our bedroom furniture). but, thats still a good idea

like i said, the worst thing for me right now is that when she needs to text me, shes signing it with her nickname i gave her (something moderately inappropriate to be using anywhere but between us… certainly not something i think she would tell her mom or anyone else… and im sure her new man would not want to call her something that was special between her and i)… which makes no sense for her, since she told me to respect her decision, to be using anything other than her real name with me.
wow, sounds like some of you actually read my story. thanks
Dude, I dont even know what to say. I hate reading about things like this, it makes it REAL. I read your entire story and just imagined what it would be like if I were in that situation, even easier since im a sys admin and own my own consulting biz. All I have to say is you must be one mentally tough man, I would have already lost it if I were you.

Stay strong, and hopefully things work out best for you. Seems as if your marriage may have gone bad, but from what you have said it sounds like you know how to make good decisions in life. Its cliche, but it really is all a journey and your true test of character is how you deal with things along the way. Props to you.
I don’t understand the problem with you being on the computer when she would be watching soap operas? Did she expect you to watch soap operas together? Sometimes you need a break from each other and her watching soap operas while you were on the computer was that break. But next time you do need to watch how much time you spend in front of the computer.

2 people can fall out of love almost as quickly as they fell into it. I know it hurts but you need to accept it and move on and meet new women. You can’t let it bring you down.

I don’t mean to pry but how was your sex life? You used the term "make love" or "making love" so it sounds like your sex life was pretty bland. Read the thread in the Vaginarium about "making love", women don’t like that term.

You took care of her and her son and made sure they had a great place to live and food to eat, so it had to be something else. If she was looking outside of your marraige for other guys, experts say that women cheat for emotional reasons, so she must have been trying to fill an emotional void in your marriage.

She is being nice to you now because she didn’t want to hurt you but she didn’t know how to tell you that she wasn’t getting the sexual attention that she needed.

It is hard to make a woman happy to the fullest because women are indirect communicators. They communicate with men by dropping hints. Us guys feel that our SO’s should come directly talk to us if something is wrong so we can work it out. But it just doesn’t work that way. Women expect us to pick up the hints and fix something that we don’t know is broken.

Stay cool
*shrug* we did have sex a lot. and i always did the things that bring her to orgasm. sometimes we were just fucking to fuck, sometimes we were passionately making love. we rarely did it the same we did it the previous time. some afternoons we would get home and put a disney movie on for son just so we would immediately get some time for bedroom.

i dont think it was sexual attention, because she didnt have her own car to drive around in. i would take her everywhere she needed to go, every day. it would have been very very difficult for her to be having a physical relationship with someone else (of course im not saying it was totally impossible). and while she did allow me to photograph her totally nude, she was timid enough that when i grabbed her butt in the store it would embarrass her, and the pics she took for the other guy were underwear only.

anyway, she claims she was never sexually dissatisfied, but i guess who knows really.
I think she’s doing both to you. She’s pulling at your heart strings to keep a space available for her, and she’s torturing you.

I think she’s just found out how good she got it with you. She was irrational, and did things on impulse instead of being open and communicating with you on how she was feeling and what she wanted from you and instead of coming out with compromises on how to work things out, she took the initiative to cheat on you–even after you handed her forgiveness on a silver platter.

Don’t let her pull on your heart strings, and pack away all those things that remind you of her. Put them in a box, and hide them in the closet, in the attack.

Stay strong, and keep doing what you’re doing. It sounds like you tried to give her everything, and she turned it away because you were working hard on making a life easier for her and her son.

Don’t let her play around with you emotionally… :hugs:
i tell you what, my cat dabney has been a real trooper thru all this. her dedication and loyatly and undying love for her poppa, has really helped me get thru this.

its almost like she has been able to sense there is something wrong with me lately, and has been by my side everyday the past month. i mean, she usually always follows me around the house anyway, but she has been in my lap or whatever every moment possible.
awww kittah awwww

There are always those out there who will always love you! (i.e. kittah!)

thank you for that. many of my RL friends have been saying the same thing, but believe me its a good feeling to hear it from a stranger.
It didn’t sound like he spent an unreasonable amount of time on the computer to me, but who knows. She sounded like the one with the major problems. She doesn’t know how to communicate. If you can’t communicate you can’t maintain a relationship. DON’T let her back into your life. In fact I’d suggest cutting off contact with her completely. You’ll find someone else. Good luck.

well, my son’s grandfather is a citizen because he married a citizen and i live in Garland.

ive been to so many immigration lawyers over this. she had been here illegally so long she didnt have any options. if i would have married her in el salvador and then brought her here, it would have been a different story.

right now, here only option is to declare, allow herself to be deported, and then if we were still married, i could write letters to the american consulate in el salvador and plead with him that i am unable to function in society without my spouse, that im going documentably insane, and that i am unable to parent her son properly without her here.

after that, if they believe me, it can be a little as a year and she can legally enter the country and get into process. otherwise, if they dont believe me, you can legally enter the country for like, 10 years.

of course, she has family members who get deported, and they show up 9 months later, here illegally again of course. thats no way to live IMO, and i never considered that type of thing an option.

doesnt matter a hill worth of shit now, tho.
actually, my wife has stated that she fears that i will call immigration on her as vengence for hurting me.

she watches too many telenovelas.
I’ve been there brother. I can certainly relate.

It will probably take quite some time, but it WILL get better.
You did the right thing filing for divorce.

And I don’t think that searching her computer was wrong, either. It lead you to objective truth.

the computer, technically, belonged to me however, i gave it to her in our division of possessions, since i likely wouldnt be using it.

I read your entire story from start to finish and as soon as i started reading about how you purged her computer and found the pictures that had been sent, I was just as crushed. I am appaled that a woman in her stature would do this–especially to a man that loves her as much as you do. I aspire to be like you some day. A man that can work his ass off AND make time for the only person that I love. You truly are idolized by myself and others i’m sure. I want you to know that I am here for you in the many months to come. I know that you can overcome this hard-ship. She doesn’t deserve you, sir. Good luck with closing on your house and this will take time. Although I am only 21, I am grateful that you posted this so that i can learn from this as much as you learned when you typed it. The tears that you have shed became the pages of knowledge that i am increasingly obsessed with learning and absorbing. We are ALL here for you my friend. Good luck.

realistically, i would probably do at least 2 hours on weekdays (reciprocated by my wifes at least 2 hours of tv shows that i would have no intrest in watching), and probably 4-8 hours on saturdays or sundays. at least some of these sat or sunday hours, would be while wife and son were out visiting family (and i would be home alone). but i was never unavailable to my family during any of those hours. son was constantly coming to talk to me, and i would turn to talk to him back every time (etc etc). its not like i was zoned out or anything. honey-do jobs and tasks were never ignored, i was up out of the chair if my wife ever called. EVERY TIME my wife was cleaning or something, i was out of my chair asking if could help with something. "what i can i do to help you babe?" EVERY single time, without fail. i constantly told her that its not fair for her to take care of all the chores in the house, and me to just piddle around not doing any household work at all, that she could ask of me anything, and she would get my assistance and participation, immediately.

tasks such as vacuuming hte rugs, cleaning the cat litter, and taking out the garbage, were exclusively handled by me, every time, without promting (altho sometimes i would let the carpet go an extra week before i would do it again… *shrug*, we really didnt track a whole lot of dirt in our place). i also pretty much always washed my own laundry, got my own coke or beer, got my own snack. i DID NOT consider my wife to be my slave or servant. once every blue moon i would ask my wife to bring me a drink, and when she did, i thought that was the most special thing ever, and i was so thankful, and always mindful not to abuse such a wonder thing from (what i thought was) a wonderful woman.

my point being, that i was actively still participating in the goings on of the house, and not in a total zone out all to myself.

also, i dont always default to computer only, i do have other hobbies too. but computer, is my carreer, and it puts food on our table and a roof over our heads. just as an artist doesnt work only from 9-5, and any successful business man clocks anywhere from 50-60 or more hours in a typical week.

but none of this is saying i could have done less computer or paid attention more… if only it were asked of me, which it never was. as far as i was concerned, i was getting ready for my next string of hours billed at a rate of $120 an hour (which in 2007, i think i billed like, 84 hours on the side, working weeknights or weekends, i worked my ass off but turned good pay).

all that extra income i earned paid off tons of credit card debt, which was all hindering our plans to own a home. again, as far as i was concerned, i was working on the future we had agreed on.

i definitely feel that my wifes inability to communicate, denied me my chance to make any or every change that she could (but didnt) ask of me.
on the flip side of a lot of the above post, my wife also stated that im the only man who:

took her out of town on vacations
didnt constantly make her wait on me (drinks, food, etc)
cooked for her and son
helped around the house with chores, esp doing my own laundry
gave her a credit card(s) with her name on it
didnt beat or abuse her

i mean, she physically voiced that she took note that im different from every man she has ever been with in the past (but also, that im the only white man shes ever been with too).
and everyone, thank you, ive actually had 48 hours of no depression, and im sure its due to talking about it here, and hearing encouragements from all of you.
I read the story and first thought was this is classic woman logic at work. As men we are able to logically put facts on the table and make a life decision based on what’s the best route to go. Women on the other hand is all about emotions. Darketernal really puts it in perspective for me. I certainly think she made a decision that is wrong but at least now I understand why she made it. Her emotions are not being fulfilled and she went out of her way to find it. Another classic example is that she is now nicer to you because you are gone. The loving emotions that you used to give to her are gone and she is now acting on it to get fulfilled again. I will never understand women completely but from reading Vag and Asylum, I"m seeing a pattern that is starting to form. Just because you’re a good man and a good provder on everything else, that doesn’t mean she is fulfilled. A woman is most happy when she has all her emotion buckets filled, whether it is fear, love, anger, excite.
totally, 100% agree. but i cannot fullfill something if im not told what it is that needs fullfilling.
so last night, i ended up going to see my ex, so i could deliver another load of stuff to her. she had called me, and truthfully, her voice sounded very timid and unsure. i mean it was such a tone of voice, that my first question was ‘are you ok’ (as in, are you in trouble or hurt or something). she said no, but she asked about lots of the childrens medicine that was in the medicine cabinet… had gone totally overlooked. i told her i would pack it up and get it over to her. we agreed for sometime on saturday, but then i called her right back and said "how about i just bring it over now" (since my saturday was going to be quite busy with a full day of house shopping, and id really rather not deal with it after ill be exhausted anyway).

so i went over there and dropped off more of her stuff. we talked for a few minutes. shes so very nervous talking to me, so remoresful for breaking my heart, but she is still being very defensive of her position for choosing to go back to being single again.

i had a hell of a time getting her to calm down, and to understand that im NOT trying to talk her into coming back, only that im just trying to learn exactly what it was that caused her to be unable to talk to me. i actually already know what it was that prevented her communication… "she fears me".

fears me is what ive been trying to dredge out of her since all this occured. fear me how? ive never so much as even pushed her, and i think i raised my voice to her maybe 2 times in almost 3 years. did she fear getting a spanking on her bottom, like the boy did when he needed it? i really have no idea, but im sure its related to some form or sort of percieved vengence that i would exact on her or something. revenge for breaking my heart? again, ive never displayed any thought or action of vengence or the need for revenge or getback on anyone in this life. i have no idea why she would think such things of me. (like i said, she watches too much spanish telenovella dramas… which are brimmed full of this vengence crap, especially over love *rolls eyes*)

anyway, at this point im just trying to get her to relax around me so we can talk objectively about what happened. i am determined as possible to learn as much as i can from her about this so that whatever future relationship doesnt get affected by this. if i truly have some defect (which, 100% of my RL friends are unable to define), then she is the only one who can decribe how i can eliminate whatever the problem was.

we were mesageing back and forth this morning, and i was telling her basically exactly what i wrote above, and she replied back ‘spend more time with your family and not on the computer’, but i replied back ‘thats the part i already know… what i need to know is why you feared me to the point you couldnt talk to me about what was wrong’.

at this point im just trying to get my closure, so i can improve myself (*shrug* if there is even something definable that i can improve), and move on.
well, here is my update. last week, i think i actually went from tuesday thru friday, without any depressive feelings over all this. i had a fairly positive mental attitute about the future.

saturday, i went house shopping with my realtor for about 4 hours in the morning, then turned around and did a 3 hour consulting job after that. unfortunately, by the time i finally got home late in the afternoon, i was feeling the gloom again. much of it was on behalf of my friend, whos company i was consulting for… is going thru the same thing that led me to my divorce. he and his wife are also feeling the problems of falling out of love after many years, and while he is the one who is falling out of love (reverse of my situation), he is actively searching for ways to fix it. she doesnt feel like anything is wrong, and thus isnt motivated to make changes to make my friend happy again (also reversed from my situation). either way, it makes for seeing 2 people who i care deeply about, currently on the road to pain.

so since i have no family to take care of right now, weekends get lonely right now. i stared at my wall the rest of saturday and all of sunday, stewing over how my wife feared me, and what a monster i must be. how will i ever recover the carcass of how i am, to be something good for some other woman someday?

all these things going thru my mind caused me to be unable to remember if i was even going anything at all right, in our marriage. unfortunately, the only person i could turn to for encouragement on this issue… was my exwife herself. so i called her late last night.

she answered when i called, and at first was fairly aprehensive about talking to me. surely she feared i was calling to beg her back or talk about why she couldnt talk to me, but i assured her that my reason for calling was way beyond that. i really had to let down my own guard (because im the strong unbreakable type…) to tell her that i had been doing quite well until saturday afternoon, and what exactly i was dealing with in my head, that i was doubting my own existance as "a husband" that was worth having anyway.

she told me, that over all i was a very responsible man, that i always took care of the family properly (ie, cooking dinner, maintaining the household, things like that), i didnt treat her like my servant (ie i never asked her really to bring me a drink to the computer room, and i pretty much always did my own laundry), and that she even said that in the bedroom i was always pleasing.

she did say that she always felt guilty that she didnt do more to be more like a servant, reciprocating how i was always volunteering to help with cleaning, or if i was on my way to the kitchen i would always ask if i could bring her something. when she said she wished she had done more, i asked "so what stopped you?" she didnt know.

i did make it a point to tell her some of the ways that she was a good woman to me (well, of course i mean back before all the BS got in the way), and over all i think we both feel a little better for the wear.

ultimately, she did tell me that she has feared every man she has ever been with, and she wont ever stop fearing, and that her fear was not my fault. i still have a hard time grasping that with how lovingly i acted to her in all areas of life that she could still lump me into the category [as the man who killed her first child]. the loss of her child i know damaged her, but i never knew it went that deep as to translate to how she interacted with me as well.

oh well, over all i ended up getting what i needed, and that was some positive mental reinforcement that im still good. hopefully im on my way to my next string of days where i dont experience any down days (i know im not done with them, but id expect that as time passes, ill get more and more positive days between the negative days). so far, this is positive day number 1

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