i feel like a child at 27-years old

When I’m talking to women, I feel like a child talking to an adult, like they’re going to crush me with their response at any moment, and wasting every second. I don’t know if its something to do with not being as mature as I should be for my age and my career, if its a lack of emotional development with women from avoiding interaction or very little success, or if that’s just how it is.
I have read a majority of your previous threads and I can relate to them. I’m also in a situation a lot worse than your in.

Why is it a competition? Something that’s important to you is probably fucked up. This is really important to me because its been a problem for my all my life, and its only getting worse. Sure its just women, but the sole reason I’m here is because some guy was good enough to bang some chick and forgot to pull out and bam, black jesus was born. I won’t ever have the chance to experience love or whatever again, I think that’s fairly important. Think about being socially mute, its like everything around me is a prop, not real, a game, and for some reason I can’t manipulate them the way I’m supposed to.

I did not mean to make it a competition and yes its important to me because I have also been having trouble with this all my life.

This is not true, find a therapist. If you cant afford one go through the county health services. You wont regret it.

I’ve been through this. I make too much money for the sliding scale. I make decent money, but they don’t have a mechanism that compensates for my $861 student loan payment that royally fucks my life.
I’d say it has less to do with maturity and emotional development, and much more to do with self-esteem issues.

I’d be excited to hear about your successful/failed social interactions you have. What I mean is you could keep a log of every social interaction that you care about, and afterwards, write down how you think it went.

I did this while I was in therapy, and although I spent hours telling my therapist how confident I was, she could easily point out a ton of sentences I would write down that actually showed a deep insecurity that even I didn’t realize I had.

This way, we could hear your thoughts at the time and help you realize your self-defeating thoughts. Every time you make a thread, it’s probably just a summary of a million thoughts you’ve had recently. These types of problems are better cured from the root.

It’s just a suggestion. Perhaps you could start up a thread and just post it in whenever you want.

As I’ve said before, I just really don’t want to see you fall into the trap of taking advice and forgetting it once you’re out in social interactions.

excuses = rationalization

you work hard enough and you can find one

everyone here is pretty much tired of hearing about whatever my problems are.

I might start writing all that shit down…but at this point I’ve pretty much cut off interacting with people all together. I’ve effectively given up, again. I guess I’ll wait another 8-years and maybe the pattern will continue.

excuses = rationalization

you work hard enough and you can find one

well, you can also look at motherfucking reality. I don’t understand what the fuck why everyone thinks this is so simple. My options are to either not pay rent or not pay my student loan. $436 per month is a large chunk of money for me. I don’t see what’s so difficult about I DON’T MAKE THAT MUCH MONEY PER MONTH!!!!!oneoneone

everyone here is pretty much tired of hearing about whatever my problems are.

I might start writing all that shit down…but at this point I’ve pretty much cut off interacting with people all together. I’ve effectively given up, again. I guess I’ll wait another 8-years and maybe the pattern will continue.

64,997 posts I think your interacting enough.

Have you thought of calling the loans office to see if they can provide you with a "grace" period?

nothing about reality is simple, Good luck.

64,997 posts I think your interacting enough.

Have you thought of calling the loans office to see if they can provide you with a "grace" period?

nothing about reality is simple, Good luck.

forums are my only real communication with people, aside from that I just sit around my apartment or go out alone and make an ass of myself.

The grace period is not an option. I could go back on deferment but all that interest compounds monthly and my payments keep going up and up. The way it sits now, after all my bills (I’m not talking about cable TV or shit like that) I have $288 to buy gasoline and food with.

everyone here is pretty much tired of hearing about whatever my problems are.

I might start writing all that shit down…but at this point I’ve pretty much cut off interacting with people all together. I’ve effectively given up, again. I guess I’ll wait another 8-years and maybe the pattern will continue.

This post alone is a perfect example of why a journal would help you.

You have no idea if people are tired of hearing what your problems are. You can’t assume to know what people think. When observing another person’s words or actions, people with depression/anxiety assume to know much more than they actually do know.

Your self-defeating thought here on this board tell me that you probably constantly have the same self-defeating thoughts in social situations too. "She probably has a boyfriend," or "She probably wouldn’t like me," or "That date went terrible! She won’t want to see me again."

You would be completely surprised if you knew what people actually thought. Most people have the same insecurities as you, just on a larger or smaller scale.

You could say "I have a feeling that people on this message board are getting tired of hearing my problems." That would be an opinion, and you would subconsciously accept it. However, when you state it as a fact, as you did, you subconsciously accept it as a fact. If you were talking to a girl and said to yourself "She isn’t interested in me," then the battle is over. You have already lost. A fact is a fact.

The world isn’t always as you think it is. I freaking love Star Wars, so I’ll quote Qui-Gon Jinn and say "Your focus determines your reality." Stop focusing on the "facts."

This post alone is a perfect example of why a journal would help you.

You have no idea if people are tired of hearing what your problems are. You can’t assume to know what people think. When observing another person’s words or actions, people with depression/anxiety assume to know much more than they actually do know.

I disagree. I know I’m not exactly intelligent, far from it. I sure as hell wouldn’t assume my muddied opinions of my experiences were more accurate than an opinion of someone who is capable of maintaining relationships and has a successful social life.

I’m not exactly the most intelligent person, if I were I’d probably be making more money, have more friends, and not be in this thread right now. I respect everyone’s advice here.

I’m so worried every time I speak to anyone, but especially with women who are high in demand and where I have tons and tons of competition from people who look better, are taller, more "pumped", better cloths, better hair, more intelligent, more conversational. I don’t want to annoy people. I don’t want to be the weird guy who won’t go away. Until I spend some more time in the gym, get better cars, buy a house, and do a bunch of other shit, I’m not going to do well with women.

You’re approaching it like they have to approve of you. Something to keep in mind:

They already know the kind of man they like, and you’re already the kind of man you are, so they already know whether they like you or not, they just never had to think about it before. All you’re doing is finding it out; all the prep work happened over the course of the past 27 years, there’s nothing you can do now, so just let the chips fall where they may.

You’re approaching it like they have to approve of you. Something to keep in mind:

They already know the kind of man they like, and you’re already the kind of man you are, so they already know whether they like you or not, they just never had to think about it before. All you’re doing is finding it out; all the prep work happened over the course of the past 27 years, there’s nothing you can do now, so just let the chips fall where they may.

I typically approach it thinking, "I hope I know what to do so the don’t figure out that I’m a miserable fuck."

I know its futile and I have to "let the chips fall," but I really am tired of spending all my time alone. It gets so old. I’m so fucking lonely.

You’re approaching it like they have to approve of you. Something to keep in mind:

They already know the kind of man they like, and you’re already the kind of man you are, so they already know whether they like you or not, they just never had to think about it before. All you’re doing is finding it out; all the prep work happened over the course of the past 27 years, there’s nothing you can do now, so just let the chips fall where they may.

Social interaction is just like anything else: it can be improved with practice.

He can develop more confidence and self-esteem and absolutely be the type of man most girls want. He isn’t "stuck" with what he has.

100% of his failures are in is head, caused by catastrophic and self-defeating thoughts. Some people do get better, and he is obviously intelligent enough to be one of those who overcome the problems, whether or not he will admit it.

There is something he can do about it, and he can start right now.
That’s the wrong approach, Socrates. I agree that superficial stuff can be improved, but on the whole, it’s safe to assume he’s the person he wants to be because he likes being that person, so he will always default back to who he "really is" when it comes to important issues. So it’s better not to present a facade that makes him look like someone he isn’t, only to get into one potentially-successful relationship after another that fails because he was lying about who he is.

Seriously, if he just accepts that he is who he is and she likes who she likes and there’s no changing either one, it becomes a hell of a lot easier to get rejected, because you didn’t do anything wrong, you just didn’t match up at all and so it wouldn’t have been worth the effort to try anyway.

I typically approach it thinking, "I hope I know what to do so the don’t figure out that I’m a miserable fuck."

I know its futile and I have to "let the chips fall," but I really am tired of spending all my time alone. It gets so old. I’m so fucking lonely.

I prefer to apologize (humorously!) for having no game whatsoever. Surprisingly, they usually relax a lot when I say that, because it means they don’t have to try to read between my lines to decipher meanings that aren’t really there.

One thing women will never forgive is a guy who thinks he’s a miserable fuck. You’re not a miserable fuck, you’re just weird. Of course, if you’ve based your entire life on the notion that you should be like other people, then yes, I suppose you are a miserable fuck — but those people whom you have let dictate the standards of your life are going to die too, no matter how fantastic they are at being cool, so their opinions really aren’t worth more than your own.

Unless you’re drunk, stoned, half-naked, and living in a cardboard box in an alley, your approach on life has clearly met with some success. So you don’t need to continue wondering whether you’re "doing it right". The only right way is the way that works, and there are lots of ways that work. Yours is, presumably, one of them.

If you enter into an interaction with a woman confident in the fact that your personal history proves you’re not a complete failure, and that you and she are both the way you are because you like being that way, then it becomes a lot easier to get rejected over and over until you find someone who likes your worldview, because, as I said, you didn’t do anything wrong in the first place.

I’ve been reading some self-help on becoming alpha, and taking control of my life…but I keep fucking failing every god damn time.

It really hit hard to when I was going to a club, which I really didn’t want to go to, with some friends on saturday. There were 5 chicks my 4 friends picked up at another bar, so when we went to another bar that doesn’t let single guys in unless they drive maseratis. My buddies couldn’t even convince this girl to tell the bouncer that she was with me so I could get in the club. She couldn’t fucking bring herself to slum it and just for an instant tell a random person that she was associated with me.

This is what I don’t get. I don’t understand what’s wrong with me. My old roommate and her husband agree that they’re perplexed and don’t know what my fucking problem is. At this point I’ve pretty much made up my mind that I’m done trying socially. I have to accept that whatever the ailment is, I won’t understand it or be able to do anything about it. I will be alone for the rest of my life. There is no getting out of this, its the way it works.

I’m like one of those guys who weighs 140lb, and has to go to an adult arcade to experience women. I’m the guy who doesn’t know his neighbors because he never goes in or out of the house to meet them, and its a good thing he doesn’t because then they’d be creeped out and move. How the fuck did I become the scary rapist guy who sweats and has bad hygine? I’m like Kip from Napoleon Dynamite. Its kinda sad. I’ve been driving the track car because my daily driver is broken. I only have the driver’s seat in, and for the last 2 weeks, this hasn’t been a problem…lol.

That’s the wrong approach, Socrates. I agree that superficial stuff can be improved, but on the whole, it’s safe to assume he’s the person he wants to be because he likes being that person, so he will always default back to who he "really is" when it comes to important issues. So it’s better not to present a facade that makes him look like someone he isn’t, only to get into one potentially-successful relationship after another that fails because he was lying about who he is.

Seriously, if he just accepts that he is who he is and she likes who she likes and there’s no changing either one, it becomes a hell of a lot easier to get rejected, because you didn’t do anything wrong, you just didn’t match up at all and so it wouldn’t have been worth the effort to try anyway.

He can’t accept who he is, because that is the whole problem from the beginning. The underlying source or problems with people of low self-esteem is because they don’t have the "I’m okay with being me," mindset. Instead, they think "I should be this type of guy so others will accept me." If Black Jesus could simply say "I’m all right with who I am!", then he wouldn’t have any of these problems. He wouldn’t feel he has to have nice things in order for women to like him.

When you say "it’s safe to assume he’s the person he wants to be because he likes being that person," I see a very different picture. Does Black Jesus seem like he likes himself? Do depressed people ever really like themselves?

I’m not saying he should try to change his personality, his beliefs, or any of the things he likes. I don’t mean to make it sound like I want him to create a facade of who he is. I’m not talking about Pick-Up Artist stuff and lying about who you are or any lying whatsoever. I’m simply saying he should try to recognize these self-defeating thoughts and beliefs, and change them. Those are very possible to change.

He can’t accept who he is, because that is the whole problem from the beginning. The underlying source or problems with people of low self-esteem is because they don’t have the "I’m okay with being me," mindset. Instead, they think "I should be this type of guy so others will accept me." If Black Jesus could simply say "I’m all right with who I am!", then he wouldn’t have any of these problems. He wouldn’t feel he has to have nice things in order for women to like him.

When you say "it’s safe to assume he’s the person he wants to be because he likes being that person," I see a very different picture. Does Black Jesus seem like he likes himself? Do depressed people ever really like themselves?

I’m not saying he should try to change his personality, his beliefs, or any of the things he likes. I don’t mean to make it sound like I want him to create a facade of who he is. I’m not talking about Pick-Up Artist stuff and lying about who you are or any lying whatsoever. I’m simply saying he should try to recognize these self-defeating thoughts and beliefs, and change them. Those are very possible to change.

I agree. I’m not alright with who I am, I do not want to be me. Me sucks. No one wants to be around me, especially women. Women have always fucked with "me."

I realize that I’m incredibly negative. We had a new employee in the office that told me last week, "what happened man? I’ve been here like 4 months and I’ve never met anyone so consistently negative all the time. At first I thought it was funny, then I thought you were looking for attention, but now I wonder if someone in your family died."

I had a really good week when I went on a vacation with a random girl back in January. It was awesome. I’ve been motivated to speak to women since then because I want to feel like that again. I couldn’t remember what it was like because I haven’t had a date January, 2000. Now I feel like a Heroine addiction every time I talk to a girl and she instantaneously shits on me.

I’ve been reading some self-help on becoming alpha, and taking control of my life…but I keep fucking failing every god damn time.

It really hit hard to when I was going to a club, which I really didn’t want to go to, with some friends on saturday. There were 5 chicks my 4 friends picked up at another bar, so when we went to another bar that doesn’t let single guys in unless they drive maseratis. My buddies couldn’t even convince this girl to tell the bouncer that she was with me so I could get in the club. She couldn’t fucking bring herself to slum it and just for an instant tell a random person that she was associated with me.

Yes, that was a bitch move on her part. However, that was just her, and plenty of other cute girls would have helped you out.

However, it sounds like you didn’t know this girl. It’s not like she was a really good friend and did this to you. How can you take it so personal when she doesn’t know anything about you?

The only thing that really means is two things: 1) She is a bitch, and 2) You aren’t good looking enough to get beautiful girls interested in you by looks alone. Fortunately, 99% of men out there aren’t good looking enough to get women interested in them based on looks alone. As you already said you are doing, keep going to the gym and improve yourself as much as possible.

There isn’t really anything I can say to give you the courage keep going back out there and trying again. If Abraham Lincoln gave up as easily as you, I’d probably have someone here to make my lunch for me right now.
That just makes it sound even more like you need approval from everyone.

I already told you, if you’re making money and you’re not getting thrown in jail every weekend and you’re not strung-out all the time, then your take on life is valid. So stop feeling like it isn’t.

– – –

You know what I did to break free from needing validation? I lived all by myself for months, didn’t see anyone, rarely called anyone on the phone, and wrestled with why nobody ever wanted to pro-actively show an interest in me. Eventually I just concluded that it’s because I wasn’t giving them any reason to notice me. I don’t deserve attention, there’s six billion people out there for other people to look at. You gotta do your own thing, preferably in public, and try to attract attention that way. Nobody’s going to pro-actively want to notice you and think you’re cool and go out with you. You have to show that you’re worth paying attention to, by doing something that catches their eye. And if nothing you do is that sort of thing, then at least enjoy doing it by yourself.

To tell you the truth, socialites are all alone too, because they’re all only pretending to pay attention to each other so others will pay attention to them. It’s all a game.

hahahahaha, that’s fucking great. I’m going to use that.

That just makes it sound even more like you need approval from everyone.

I already told you, if you’re making money and you’re not getting thrown in jail every weekend and you’re not strung-out all the time, then your take on life is valid. So stop feeling like it isn’t.

– – –

You know what I did to break free from needing validation? I lived all by myself for months, didn’t see anyone, rarely called anyone on the phone, and wrestled with why nobody ever wanted to pro-actively show an interest in me. Eventually I just concluded that it’s because I wasn’t giving them any reason to notice me. I don’t deserve attention, there’s six billion people out there for other people to look at. You gotta do your own thing, preferably in public, and try to attract attention that way. Nobody’s going to pro-actively want to notice you and think you’re cool and go out with you. You have to show that you’re worth paying attention to, by doing something that catches their eye. And if nothing you do is that sort of thing, then at least enjoy doing it by yourself.

To tell you the truth, socialites are all alone too, because they’re all only pretending to pay attention to each other so others will pay attention to them. It’s all a game.

After my ex and I split up in January, I spent the next couple of months sitting at home wondering why my social life sucked. Sometimes I thought "I must not be the exciting guy I once was, or once thought I was."

However, I started calling friends more and more and getting invited to parties. Most the times, the people at these parties would love me and want to hang out again.

Had I not made the phone calls to hang out, I wouldn’t have realized that I was an amiable guy and people really enjoyed hanging out with me.

You know what I did to break free from needing validation? I lived all by myself for months, didn’t see anyone, rarely called anyone on the phone, and wrestled with why nobody ever wanted to pro-actively show an interest in me. Eventually I just concluded that it’s because I wasn’t giving them any reason to notice me. I don’t deserve attention, there’s six billion people out there for other people to look at. You gotta do your own thing, preferably in public, and try to attract attention that way. Nobody’s going to pro-actively want to notice you and think you’re cool and go out with you. You have to show that you’re worth paying attention to, by doing something that catches their eye. And if nothing you do is that sort of thing, then at least enjoy doing it by yourself.

To tell you the truth, socialites are all alone too, because they’re all only pretending to pay attention to each other so others will pay attention to them. It’s all a game.

I agree with you, but if there’s 6B people out there, and 1/100 have the qualities desire by other people, then shouldn’t I adjust my desired goals to something realistic like solitude.

I guess if anything I can discuss this here, and not really worry about people flipping out. I’ve been thinking about suicide again, but not like everyone else does. I don’t want to kill myself, its kinda like I should. Does this make sense. I want to succeed at this and have friends but more importantly, I want a woman in my life. I’m not talking about a wife or GF for me to drive crazy with neediness, I want to be able to go out with a girl, or have a girl come over once a month or so. That’s not an option though, and I’m tired of living like this where I constantly feel like I’m fucked up. Its not normal to be totally unable to attract women. I don’t want to give up, I want to have a desire to win at this. But logic is telling me to stop attempting because my success record is so poor. Its like death is the most intelligent option for me, it will stop all the shit-emotions I’m tired of, but I don’t want to quit, I want to feel something again. Is that totally absurd? I should kill myself, but I don’t want to. You’ll probably never hear that again.

My buddies are going on another trip to the wine country at the end of this year, and I want to go, but I’m not going alone. That’s 6-months away, basically I have 5 months to find a girl that I want to take with me. I want to be happy like I was on that trip to the Wine Country. I forgot what it was like to feel like that. I really did. Now it haunts me.
You know, I think you’re a pretty cool dude.. But damn bro, it’s like you solve your issues then resort right back to the same ones.

Practice what you do when you’re happy / fulfilled more often, the outcome won’t always be so negative.

I’m not trolling but I seriously LOL’d when I read this… just the way you wrote it made it funny.

But, that is the only reason why any of us are here. Being a planned baby or unplanned doesn’t define who you are… you define who you are.

I can relate to you more than you know… I am 27 and have only had 1 girlfriend in my life which was back in high school in 1999. I have been working on changing my life though.

First you need to change your way of thinking. You sound like a negative nancy, and no one likes to hang out with negative nancy’s. Becoming more positive about things will help change your mentality.

Secondly stop putting the pussy on a pedestal. If you go into interactions with women thinking you’re inferior to them they will sense this and you will have no chance to spark attraction. Alpha males never see themselves as inferior and all the alpha males I know have stuck their dicks into a lot of pussy.

What hobbies do you have? Do you workout at the gym? Lift weights and cardio training? Can you play the guitar? Have you thought about learning martial arts? I have been going to martial arts class for a few years now and it has boosted my confidence in all social situations. I even go to the gym and lift weights and jog/bike. Working out releases endorphins that give you a natural high. When I was a kid I was the happiest I have ever been and realized it was because I ran or rode my bike everywhere. Kids nowadays sit inside playing video games and don’t get much exercise and they are all emo and depressed.

If you like music, you should learn to play the guitar. Take leasons, it will give you something to do on a week night or weekend. I had a chubby friend that loves playing music and was in band in school and played other instruments but started learning to play the guitar teaching himself. It was amazing when he would bust out the guitar at parties and start playing and the girls at the party would flock around him with thier pussys swooning. You could see the wet spot thru their pants He could have had sex with a lot of those girls but he was the ‘nice guy’ type so he would never hook up with them.

Start living your life doing things you want to do. You will become a happier person and a more interesting person. Also look into some books and publications on improving your social skills. There are many out there. Also keep in mind that some pickup artists teach some things that can also improve your social skills. Sometimes when trying to meet women you may have to open a group of girls or a group with girls and guys mixed. Knowing how to open a set can help improve your confidence.

I’m not trolling but I seriously LOL’d when I read this… just the way you wrote it made it funny.

But, that is the only reason why any of us are here. Being a planned baby or unplanned doesn’t define who you are… you define who you are.

I can relate to you more than you know… I am 27 and have only had 1 girlfriend in my life which was back in high school in 1999. I have been working on changing my life though.

First you need to change your way of thinking. You sound like a negative nancy, and no one likes to hang out with negative nancy’s. Becoming more positive about things will help change your mentality.

Secondly stop putting the pussy on a pedestal. If you go into interactions with women thinking you’re inferior to them they will sense this and you will have no chance to spark attraction. Alpha males never see themselves as inferior and all the alpha males I know have stuck their dicks into a lot of pussy.

What hobbies do you have? Do you workout at the gym? Lift weights and cardio training? Can you play the guitar? Have you thought about learning martial arts? I have been going to martial arts class for a few years now and it has boosted my confidence in all social situations. I even go to the gym and lift weights and jog/bike. Working out releases endorphins that give you a natural high. When I was a kid I was the happiest I have ever been and realized it was because I ran or rode my bike everywhere. Kids nowadays sit inside playing video games and don’t get much exercise and they are all emo and depressed.

If you like music, you should learn to play the guitar. Take leasons, it will give you something to do on a week night or weekend. I had a chubby friend that loves playing music and was in band in school and played other instruments but started learning to play the guitar teaching himself. It was amazing when he would bust out the guitar at parties and start playing and the girls at the party would flock around him with thier pussys swooning. You could see the wet spot thru their pants He could have had sex with a lot of those girls but he was the ‘nice guy’ type so he would never hook up with them.

Start living your life doing things you want to do. You will become a happier person and a more interesting person. Also look into some books and publications on improving your social skills. There are many out there. Also keep in mind that some pickup artists teach some things that can also improve your social skills. Sometimes when trying to meet women you may have to open a group of girls or a group with girls and guys mixed. Knowing how to open a set can help improve your confidence.

my conception comment was not about planner pregnancy, it was about having the ability to make that happen, women choosing men to sleep with.

I don’t just put women on a pedestal, I consider myself substandard. I’m the worst at everything I do. I may be 5’11" 194lb at 12%, but I still feel like Urkel. I have the worst physical aspect in every category, worst car, worst apartment, worst furniture, worst opinions, and everything else. Its like limited # of friends to me a favor by hanging out with the retarded kid who nobody likes.

There have been 2 nights in particular where I could really hook with women. I can open just fine, I just can’t get over the logic that I’m totally random, they know what I’m doing, and why would they want to talk to me when I have the least to offer of any guy in that room? I don’t see why any of these women want me to interrupt them and speak.

It’s most likely a lack of development.

My problem stemmed from my childhood. 2 things were wrong when I was a kid. First I was cute as hell when I was a kid. I got compliments from everyone, and I had girls chasing me around all the time. I never had to work for attention from girls it just always came to me. Then when I hit puberty, I got hit with the ‘fuck your good looks up stick’. I wasn’t the cutest kid anymore and when you get into middle school and high school, everyone’s social skills start to develop and you can’t get by on good looks anymore unless you are a hot girl with big tits and a nice ass.

Then when I was in middle school and high school, my parents were extremely religious, and they were scared that any interaction I had with a girl would lead to me getting some girl pregnant. So they suffocated me and never allowed me to go to parties, dances, or other places where you develop social skills at a young age. I couldn’t even have a girlfriend and when I got my first girlfriend in my senior year of high school all hell broke loose and my parents hated it.

So I was never able to develop the correct social skills to interact with women. I can hang out with guy friends and socialize just fine, but when a woman is near by my mind goes blank and I don’t know what to talk about. Maybe your situation is the same.

We can only work on improving our social prowess, and keep our heads up that we still have our 30’s ahead of us. Just remember women love older guys for various reasons. You probably have seen many guys in there 30’s dating young hot big breasted women in their early to mid 20’s. I know I have seen my share. So at least I have something to try and achieve when I hit my 30’s.

my conception comment was not about planner pregnancy, it was about having the ability to make that happen, women choosing men to sleep with.

I don’t just put women on a pedestal, I consider myself substandard. I’m the worst at everything I do. I may be 5’11" 194lb at 12%, but I still feel like Urkel. I have the worst physical aspect in every category, worst car, worst apartment, worst furniture, worst opinions, and everything else. Its like limited # of friends to me a favor by hanging out with the retarded kid who nobody likes.

There have been 2 nights in particular where I could really hook with women. I can open just fine, I just can’t get over the logic that I’m totally random, they know what I’m doing, and why would they want to talk to me when I have the least to offer of any guy in that room? I don’t see why any of these women want me to interrupt them and speak.

You gotta try to adopt the winners mentality. When you see sports reporters interviewing athletes before a big game and they ask the athlete who is going to win they always say they or their team will win. If they said that they are probably going to lose, they will never win.

You do have the ability to make anything happen. You do have many things you can offer women. Women do want to talk with you.

Think like a loser and you’ll be a loser.
Think like a winner and you’ll be a winner.

why? I don’t see why any woman would want me, some random loser, talking to them. Even if I weren’t a random loser and were just "average", they still wouldn’t want me speaking to them. I don’t know what any woman would want from me that I could give her.

everyone here is pretty much tired of hearing about whatever my problems are.

I might start writing all that shit down…but at this point I’ve pretty much cut off interacting with people all together. I’ve effectively given up, again. I guess I’ll wait another 8-years and maybe the pattern will continue.

I’m never tired of your posts because you write them very, very well.

It was uplifting when you were happy because you’re usually so unhappy, but to be honest, I like the posts when you’re up as well as when you’re down… it’s always good stuff.

I think the main thing is that your thoughts always make a lot of sense to me. There is something about the way you describe the things in your life – be they happy or sad – that hits home.

Your humor, insights, ideas, advice, compliments, reality-checks, listening skills, etc etc etc.

You’re an intelligent human being with ideas and views that perhaps could intrigue many women. If you can make a girl laugh and feel good, you need not much else to offer.

Your humor, insights, ideas, advice, compliments, reality-checks, listening skills, etc etc etc.

You’re an intelligent human being with ideas and views that perhaps could intrigue many women. If you can make a girl laugh and feel good, you need not much else to offer.

every guy has that shit though. I know I’m whining like a faggot at this point, but there is no reason any woman is going to want standard options which you listed for me, when she could have some guy who is ultimately superior. There is no point in even trying to start this game if I’m not the best available.

I know that’s probably going to piss a lot of people off, but why should I even talk to these women if ultimately they are just going to use me as a placeholder until some guy with bigger arms, better hair, a better car, more entertaining perspective, or whatever comes by? It might happen in the first 5 minutes I’m talking to them, or it will happen after we’ve been married 5-years. Either way they’re not going to be happy with what they have even if they are so inclined to use me to entertain them for the meantime.

Just like the last girl. We were together like a month, I thought I played all my cards right…then, before I had a chance to fuck it up, she upgraded and I never heard from her again. Not a single fucking word. I don’t want to fucking deal with that again. It happens like that all the time. Its no that I did poorly, fucked up, was mean, or lacked entertaining qualities, I just wasn’t good enough and never had the type of relationship which warranted a response. I don’t even have enough worth as a human being to get a fucking phone call letting me know its over, "no date tonight or ever, I found something better, and it wasn’t difficult because you’re slightly below average and pretty much any guy who shows up will do better than you."

This is called "projecting thoughts on to others" and if you continue to do this you will never change. Everyone is is a loser and average, its just how you display yourself. Believe it or not there are other people out there like you including a SO or two if you look hard enough.

that was the craziest for me. I haven’t been happy like that in at least 8-years, if ever. Its like for a moment, life wasn’t in a dungeon. I enjoyed some things. Its like a got a glimpse of something I wasn’t supposed to see, because now its something I want to replicate but I’m incapable, so it makes me miserable.

you’re right, but you could still get a 10.

a girl’s interest in you has nothing to do with "qualities". it’s like playing basketball or riding a back or, most accurately, like learning a video game. when you miss the hoop it has nothing to do with who you are as a human being. it has to do with how you handled the ball! you don’t quit a video game when you lose. you lose 10 times until you get the general movement down.

since your inner game is so incredibly, horribly fucked, why don’t you just focus on outer game? it’s a skill set, you can learn it. yeah, you’re a miserable wretch and you suck in every way and so on, or whatever else fucked up shit your mind is making you believe right now. but fortunately, attracting women is something you DO, after practicing; not something you are.

POSITIVE outer game only. there’s a website for that, which I can link you to, not the one I PM’ed you, but a different one.

This is false, get it out of your head and the first step is over.

the pattern over the past 8 years is irrefutable.

You have to allow yourself to change or you will keep going in circles.

but how do I change the most basic part of my life? Everything I do, every day, is based upon the reality that everything comes to an end, and everything I enjoy will soon go away and I’ll be left with nothing. How do I change that learned behavior with the contrary, and somehow create an ideological shift that will actually take?

Therapy.

Contrary to what’s been said, I think you’re setting yourself up for failure by completely ignoring your "inner game" and only focusing on "outer game."

Yes, if you went out and just started approaching a crap ton of women a day, or better yet, took the "stylelife" challenge and did Style’s "Get a Date in 30 Days" thing, your confidence absolutely would go up. It is very possible that after many attempts, you would have some success and your confidence would skyrocket. That is a solution.

However, because of your depressive tendencies, you seem to focus on the negative stuff and rarely on the positive. That means, you could go on 5 great dates, then have 1 bad date, and you would be tore up over that bad date wondering "why the fuck didn’t she like me?" I’ve been through the whole "PUA" trip that most of vaginarium is still going through. I read "The Game" way before 99% of those guys. I used to talk to a ton of those guys through PM’s, and the reason you don’t see me post in there much more is because many of them are keyboard jockies who are deeply insecure. Once you become confident in who you are and your game, trading tips and ideas on how to pick up girls seems less appealing. I spend my free evenings out socializing, not reading about socializing. The reality is that not all dates are going to go awesome, and you’re going to get rejected a lot. Because of your focusing on the negative, only focusing on your "outer game" could be even more disastrous to your self-esteem. From what I know about you, that one rejection would fuck you up and you would have a huge set back.

I think it would be much more beneficial to you to find a way to get therapy, whether it be paying a therapist or even finding some free therapy group. A therapist can really help you realize how your mind is your worst enemy and stop you from thinking these negative thoughts. However, if you still want to read the PUA stuff, I don’t think that is a bad idea. It helped me out a lot and I did get 500% better with women because of it. However, therapy helped me out in ways that David DeAngelou couldn’t. All the openings in the world couldn’t fix the insecurities I developed because of my absent father and emotionally-wrecked mother. But, when it becomes something you’re talking more about and not doing, like much of the vaginarium it seems, it can be a problem.
I just went to the gym and totally flipped out. I couldn’t get find the playlist I wanted in the mp3 player, so I smashed that pos. Then I got even more pissed off because my shoulder hurts, so i just left. One of my cars is broken, the other has fucked up exhaust, its horribly uncomfortable, and I’m tired of all this shit and its making me fucking insane. Everything is compounding right now: girls, subaru, miata, student loans, travel for work, not wanting to work out but making myself, the insurance company not returning phone calls, women blowing me off, being fucking lonely, not having enough money…its all hitting me in the balls right now. I really don’t want to live like this anymore. I think I’m going to get drunk.

WTF do I do now? I have this fucking insane level of anger right now, almost safe to say that I’ve never been angry like this before. I really want to hit more stuff, burn the fucking place down, jump off a building, fucking something. I need to release all this anger and have no fucking clue how to do it.
Get hammered or something man! That’s always a good way to calm down after a bad day. That’s what I’ll be doing in about two hours at the bowling alley with some friends!

I feel like that every fucking moment of my life. It’s gotten to the point where i constantly ask people who I have somewhat of a connection with "in your honest opinion do you think I’m annoying" they usually tell me no but then I say something like "you can be completely honest with me, you won’t hurt my feelings" then they usually tell me that if i keep asking them that question then I’ll start to become annoying. I don’t know I don’t find it hard putting myself out there and making friend, but I do find it hard keeping friends because I feel like I’m bothering people when I try to reach out. I hate feeling like this but every time I try to make steps to change this I get the same shitty feeling that I’m bothering people and I tend to just lose touch.

You know, I think you’re a pretty cool dude.. But damn bro, it’s like you solve your issues then resort right back to the same ones.

Practice what you do when you’re happy / fulfilled more often, the outcome won’t always be so negative.

It’s because he’s working it out logically, but not applying it to his real life.

I just went to the gym and totally flipped out. I couldn’t get find the playlist I wanted in the mp3 player, so I smashed that pos. Then I got even more pissed off because my shoulder hurts, so i just left. One of my cars is broken, the other has fucked up exhaust, its horribly uncomfortable, and I’m tired of all this shit and its making me fucking insane. Everything is compounding right now: girls, subaru, miata, student loans, travel for work, not wanting to work out but making myself, the insurance company not returning phone calls, women blowing me off, being fucking lonely, not having enough money…its all hitting me in the balls right now. I really don’t want to live like this anymore. I think I’m going to get drunk.

WTF do I do now? I have this fucking insane level of anger right now, almost safe to say that I’ve never been angry like this before. I really want to hit more stuff, burn the fucking place down, jump off a building, fucking something. I need to release all this anger and have no fucking clue how to do it.

Good. You’re finally getting to the point where you have the necessary drive to do something about it.

I got angry too. And I spent about a month drunk whenever I had free time. It’s all part of the grieving process.

Just roll with the punches man. We’ve all had shitty conversations/meet-ups with chicks and knew we blew it, no need to act like she would’ve been the one had we done it right.

Just be yourself because one day down the road you’re going to have to be, and better for it to never be than for her to realize she liked you for all the wrong reasons.

If you’re having issues with conversation, just talk to pretty much everyone you come into contact with, just a brief conversation and try to find things to ask other than "what’s up?" "how you been?" and "gee, would you look at that weather." Notice things about chicks, their shoes, hair style, whatever… mention something about it, or make a joke, ask a question.. just make conversation with as many different people as possible
I’m still wigged out angry. I’m going to take this week off from the gym…I went in there last night and I was just too insane to lift.

to cap things off, a dipshit in an a8 decided to cut me off bad, then brake check me, then swerve over into my lane almost running me off the road, then point and laugh at my car. I tried to get him to pull over so I could shoot him, but I had no luck.
I really, really, really have a powerful desire to scrounge up some money, pack all my shit up, and move after finding a job in northern California. I feel static and there are too many negative experiences here that I want to leave behind.

If that’s what you really want to do, go for it! Maybe new faces and new experiences would be good for you. But, you’ve got to get in a new mindframe to truly be at a better place. If you’re going to move, that’s awesome but you have to leave all the mental crap behind. If you don’t change your outlook on things it doesn’t matter how far you move, because it will be the same pattern.
Here’s something I’m translating only for you from a book on self-esteem in French :
People with a high self-esteem react emotionally in front of a failure but it doesn’t leave an emotional scar. They can face critics on sensitive issues or contradict them, they don’t really try to find out negative things about themselves (while those with low self-esteem or LSE do), they don’t feel that they have to justify themselves after a failure and think that many others would have failed too, they don’t feel rejected if criticized and have low evaluation anxiety. Success confirms their self-perception (instead of changing it like for LSE people) and they don’t think much about not being able to meet the standards or that success won’t last. They are excellent in certain specific domains and accept some weaknesses in exchange for this while LSE people prefer not to have any weakpoint and to be medium overall.

(Note that low self-esteem is the contrary on pretty much all points.)

Advantages = resilience and being able to face adversity (while low self-esteem can motivate to succeed and being able to listen to critics)
Disadvantages = can avoid listening to critics (while low self-esteem leads to suffering and anxiety).

Just some food for thought, gotta go study for now…

I agree with you, but if there’s 6B people out there, and 1/100 have the qualities desire by other people, then shouldn’t I adjust my desired goals to something realistic like solitude.

I guess if anything I can discuss this here, and not really worry about people flipping out. I’ve been thinking about suicide again, but not like everyone else does. I don’t want to kill myself, its kinda like I should. Does this make sense. I want to succeed at this and have friends but more importantly, I want a woman in my life. I’m not talking about a wife or GF for me to drive crazy with neediness, I want to be able to go out with a girl, or have a girl come over once a month or so. That’s not an option though, and I’m tired of living like this where I constantly feel like I’m fucked up. Its not normal to be totally unable to attract women. I don’t want to give up, I want to have a desire to win at this. But logic is telling me to stop attempting because my success record is so poor. Its like death is the most intelligent option for me, it will stop all the shit-emotions I’m tired of, but I don’t want to quit, I want to feel something again. Is that totally absurd? I should kill myself, but I don’t want to. You’ll probably never hear that again.

My buddies are going on another trip to the wine country at the end of this year, and I want to go, but I’m not going alone. That’s 6-months away, basically I have 5 months to find a girl that I want to take with me. I want to be happy like I was on that trip to the Wine Country. I forgot what it was like to feel like that. I really did. Now it haunts me.

The difference between people who succeed with women and those who do not is not the rate of failure. It’s just that successful guys try and try again without making much of an issue of a rejection.

Failure can push some people to disengage from their goal (an extreme sensitivity of their behavioral inhibition system does this, it’s not ALL bad, it can be quite adaptative at times) while other will try harder (sensitivity of the behavioral approach system).
I really want to succeed, but everything I’ve experienced just in the past two weeks tells me to reevaluate my expectations. I want to shift my thoughts and be successful, I really do. However I can’t seem to make it stick.
God man you’re a fucking mess. I seen pictures of you before, you look great. You’re fairly tall, lean and muscular and you got HAIR, which I don’t.

Weren’t you living out of your car a few years ago? You had the drive to change you situation then. You have a lot going for you but you fail to see any of it.

God man you’re a fucking mess. I seen pictures of you before, you look great. You’re fairly tall, lean and muscular and you got HAIR, which I don’t.

Weren’t you living out of your car a few years ago? You had the drive to change you situation then. You have a lot going for you but you fail to see any of it.

yeah, I lived in the jetta for about 6 weeks, crashing at a few friend’s places, and showering at the university gym. I’m 5’11", 192lb, and about 13% after that bottle of wine last night. I can handle financial survival just fine…well, kinda, but I don’t know what to do about the intellectually growing and being sociable. I’m getting old, and I really want to get control of this so I can still enjoy my life.

lol that’s the truth. My old roommate does that… we all give him shit for it, especially when he flubs it up, but I know he’s the only one pulling a semi-regular stream of ass.

Therapy.

Contrary to what’s been said, I think you’re setting yourself up for failure by completely ignoring your "inner game" and only focusing on "outer game."

Yes, if you went out and just started approaching a crap ton of women a day, or better yet, took the "stylelife" challenge and did Style’s "Get a Date in 30 Days" thing, your confidence absolutely would go up. It is very possible that after many attempts, you would have some success and your confidence would skyrocket. That is a solution.

However, because of your depressive tendencies, you seem to focus on the negative stuff and rarely on the positive. That means, you could go on 5 great dates, then have 1 bad date, and you would be tore up over that bad date wondering "why the fuck didn’t she like me?" I’ve been through the whole "PUA" trip that most of vaginarium is still going through. I read "The Game" way before 99% of those guys. I used to talk to a ton of those guys through PM’s, and the reason you don’t see me post in there much more is because many of them are keyboard jockies who are deeply insecure. Once you become confident in who you are and your game, trading tips and ideas on how to pick up girls seems less appealing. I spend my free evenings out socializing, not reading about socializing. The reality is that not all dates are going to go awesome, and you’re going to get rejected a lot. Because of your focusing on the negative, only focusing on your "outer game" could be even more disastrous to your self-esteem. From what I know about you, that one rejection would fuck you up and you would have a huge set back.

I think it would be much more beneficial to you to find a way to get therapy, whether it be paying a therapist or even finding some free therapy group. A therapist can really help you realize how your mind is your worst enemy and stop you from thinking these negative thoughts. However, if you still want to read the PUA stuff, I don’t think that is a bad idea. It helped me out a lot and I did get 500% better with women because of it. However, therapy helped me out in ways that David DeAngelou couldn’t. All the openings in the world couldn’t fix the insecurities I developed because of my absent father and emotionally-wrecked mother. But, when it becomes something you’re talking more about and not doing, like much of the vaginarium it seems, it can be a problem.

ok.

so you’re saying after you got successful with women, you finally patched up your inner game. because of therapy or whatever. but notice the order of events.

and socrates, i remember you going on ad nauseum about dating and i never thought your advice was particularly insightful. most of it was a play on the "hard-to-get" cliche. "show her your independence," and whatnot, which is rooted in insecurity, and fear, and an unhealthy obsession with the worst social aspects of human beings.

the advice you gave that was really disastrous was your application of game to questions of romance. ugh

the copious amount of ladiez advice you gave says more about how much you like to be an authority on the ladiez than anything else. and yeah, lots of guys talk the talk but don’t walk the walk, but i think you’re projecting that onto the vag… not everyone there is like that.

bj, I agree with socrates that you should see a therapist if you have the financial means. if you don’t have the financial means, then fuck inner game. think about it, attempting to fix your mental state yourself, that would be trying to fix your disfunctioning brain with that same disfunctioning brain, fixing an infected computer with an infected program. good luck

i think everyone is different, but from personal experience, drive can overcome inner game issues, and focusing on outer game forces the mind away from all the messed up thoughts that it feeds itself. why not learn that, in the meantime, seeing as your inner game is so royally fucked right now.
You just sit here and whine about that no woman would want to speak with you.

Why don’t you stop being such a baby and go transform yourself into someone they would want to talk to.
No one here will have a magic key for you that will solve your problems. Start taking responsibility for yourself.

ok.

so you’re saying after you got successful with women, you finally patched up your inner game. because of therapy or whatever. but notice the order of events.

I was able to get laid, yes, but I still felt insecure about who I was. Once I finally found a girl I liked and we became a couple, it became disastrous because my insecurities really started to show.

I became good at dating, which I think most people would after practicing the PUA stuff, but most PUAs have the ultimate goal of finding a girl to share their life with. Just because someone can be good at dating doesn’t mean they can have a healthy relationship. All the dating in the world won’t help a guy feel secure with a woman when all he has known his whole life is abandonment.

The advice I gave was stuff that I read about in PUA stuff, and then went out and applied in real life. I could care less if you thought my advice was insightful or not. I received a lot of PM’s from people asking for advice, and I was happy to give it. I can’t expect to please everybody, especially someone with an ego like yours who likes to confront people at every possible chance. You haven’t liked me since you tried to confront my English abilities, so I can imagine the preconceived negative attitude you already have of me even before you read my posts. Hence the fact that you’re attacking my old dating advice, which has nothing to do with what we are talking about right now. As soon as you get defensive, the good grammar and big words start coming out.

I made it a point to separate game from romance. I even openly admitted "I don’t know much about relationships." Now you’re just lying and attacking me.

What? Where is the logic in that?

Being bad with women made me depressed throughout high school, and I found ways to help me get better. I was extremely interested in the subject, and I liked talking about it. Some of the questions people were asking were situations I had been through, so I offered my advice. How can you possibly make the connection that me giving advice relates to my attitude towards women?

Do you want to know why I have the opinion I do of the vaginarium? It’s because many of the guys who seem to be the "authority" on dating advice in there are the same guys who were just messaging me months ago telling me how their dating lives suck and wanted to talk to me about it. I’m not saying the whole vaginarium is like that of course, but there are many.

You just sit here and whine about that no woman would want to speak with you.

Why don’t you stop being such a baby and go transform yourself into someone they would want to talk to.
No one here will have a magic key for you that will solve your problems. Start taking responsibility for yourself.

If I knew what I was supposed to transform into, and knew how to do that, I would. Jesus fuck I’d love to do that.
Socrates, being in a relationship is what reveals insecurities of that nature; not seeing a shrink.

The disaster of my first experience with love is what made me capable of my current experience.

Btw, I guess I confused your romantic advice with Viper’s or someone else’s. Are you sure you never applied pick-up advice to romance?

Socrates, being in a relationship is what reveals insecurities of that nature; not seeing a shrink.

The disaster of my first experience with love is what made me capable of my current experience.

I agree that my relationship revealed the insecurities. But, I wasn’t smart enough to understand it or know what to do about it. I was always confused because I would tell myself "I thought I was good with women….what the hell is the matter with me."

My first serious relationship was ruined because of my insecurities while I was deployed, and my second relationship was ruined was because I was so terrified it would happen again that I wasn’t able to get close to anyone.

I feel that I’m ready now, and the next relationship will go much better.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that you’re right; my relationships did reveal my insecurities. However, my shrink gave me the tools I needed to overcome them. I still have an emptiness because of my childhood, but I’m actually able to enjoy my day now and be happy.

edit: To be honest, I don’t remember 90% of the advice I used to give, but I do remember being adamant about not giving serious relationship advice. Unless I came in drunk one night and felt like an expert on relationships, I don’t think I would have given that advice.

Yeah I’d be asking for my drinks to be "shaken, not stirred" if we could transform into whoever we want to be!

What are you doing to find out?

reading, follow advice, and going through the motions with a fake smile.
and yet many guys who are less physically attractive and less successful professionally can talk to women with no problems and have their pick of women to date
and don’t turn to alcohol, or you may well have to add a drinking problem to your list of woes

i’ve done this, and lost the pleasure of casual drinking as a result

Try. Fail. Observe the successful person who jumps into the hole left by your failure. Learn from it. Repeat as necessary.

I’m not a bar kinda guy, but the huge advantage to bars is that they’re chock-full of people who don’t give a shit about you, so you can totally fuck up and nobody will remember the next time you stop in for a practice session. Eventually, you’ll learn how to keep their attention on you despite all the other distractions, and at that point, you can stop going to bars and start going to places with people you actually want to be around without worrying about making a fool of yourself.

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