I’ve had a lot of trouble with insomnia lately, thinking about asking my doc for something to help with it. Last time (got a new job, needed to fix my sleep schedule) he gave me triazolam…which I just argued is super addicting. I took it once and just got buzzed for a few hours and didn’t even fall asleep.

I have some melatonin, which helps a little. But as far as like Ambien and all those, is there a "best" to ask for? I hear stories about sleep walking n shit, which I’d rather avoid. It’d just be nice to get decent sleep on nights like this. Normally I’m asleep by like 11pm-midnight, but this 3-4am shit is a little ridiculous, and it happens at least once a week. I try to use the the extra time to get work done (self employed), but I loathe waking up at noon and being all woozy.

Recommendations?

I’d ask OTer Scootin, but in my experience the dependency issue with sleep aids is so serious I won’t mess with them again. The more you use them, the more you can’t sleep without them. I tried Valium for a sleep disorder and it just made me go on a half-baked late night eating binge.

yea that’s just another benzo, trying to avoid those because ive had issues with them in the past. theyre addicting and apparently reduce sleep quality. just ned something i can use every once in a while.

Trouble falling asleep or staying asleep? How long do you typically sleep in a night? What are your habits before bed like?

Also, when you go to bed at 3-4am and wake up at noon, are you reasonably well rested?

Try Unisom man.
DO NOT USE AMBIEN or AMBIEN CR. They are EASILY abused. It’s no joke. I can take 3 of them(CR) and not even get tired. It’s just like being super drunk(with your thought process) and totally able to do what you want to do.
-Stay out of your bed room until you are tired. If you are laying in bed and cannot sleep, get out of bed. Drink a glass of milk. Read a book in a comfy chair or something until you yawn. You need to tell your brain into thinking that the bedroom is only for sleep and horizontal dancing.
-Don’t eat or exercise for 4 hours prior to going to bed. NO CAFFEINE.
I used to work third shift, and I am currently out of work. It’s been over 6 months and I STILL sleep like I did when I worked 3rd shift. Or, I stay up late and take multiple cat-naps throughout the day. IT SUCKS.
Good luck man. But try doing it with OTC sleep aids first. I tried Ambien(regular white tabs) when I was like 18. Then I realized how much "fun" it was when I would fight them and try to stay awake. Now, I cannot take any sleep medication(prescription or OTC). Mostly because I chose not to, but also because I don’t think they would work for me anymore. And the next day feeling SUCKS.

I’ve started on parnate, that’s the problem. Insomnia up the ass.

Melatonin is crap for me. If I take it before bed, I’ll wake up in 4hrs and feel like I’m rested for about 3 and then it’s too late to fall asleep again. It also does nothing if I’m not physically tired. Makes for even more vivid lucid dreams, though.

There is one generic called Zaleplon, not sure what it is called name brand, but it is not addictive. It will put you to sleep for about 4 hours but it isn’t good if you have trouble staying asleep.
The good thing about it is that if it gets to be midnight and you are still not asleep you can take it and still get up at 7am for work.

It’s Sch IV. At best behind the counter. Usually prescribed.

I’m willing to bet my ass off that you haven’t considered going for a nice hours walk after dinner and staying away from the monitor before bed.

Oh, I almost forgot. When I had my DUI class, my counselor would rave on and on about amino acid’s that you can get. She talked about ones that would curb appetite and others that would help you sleep. I cannot remember the name of the one that helped with sleep, but it was 100% natural and non-abusive/addictive(she claimed).

Do not use Unisom or anything OTC that contains diphenhydramine or doxylamine (which is almost everything). These are awful sleep aids.

This is good advice, though.

The problem here is likely iatrogenic. Parnate is well-known for its insomnia-inducing effects. Basically, going for a walk and stuff like that is going to do very little.

I’m wondering why he’s on an MAOI, though.

Ambien and Sonata (zaleplon) will do roughly the same thing, though zaleplon has an even shorter half-life. All of the z-drugs (zolpidem, zaleplon, eszopiclone) carry pretty much the same risk of dependency and many of the same side effects, owing to their benzodiazepine-esque mechanism of action.

Oh, and to answer your question – it’s a tough one. A lot of the off-label sleep aids like trazodone can’t be used with MAOIs, so your options are usually benzodiazepines and nonbenzodiazepines. Ambien gets a bad rap, but is a pretty solid drug. Lunesta is also very good and will help you stay asleep as well, but is much more expensive.

For you, it may be more trial and error than anything.

I like you but I politely disagree. I have practical experience using benzodiazapines and all of them are the worse.

In fact I tried one the other night for the first time in years (because I wanted to experiment and see if it helped with my TMJd) and ended up walking all over town at 4 AM in the morning in a complete blitz with no real objective.

It was only 1 mg Klonopin and I was safe the whole time but that crap is ABSOLUTE GARBAGE. It causes nerve damage and brain damage over long time use despite what studies say (some may support this notion).

Try a solid long walk, a heavy meal and a cup of herbal calming tea (if it does not conflict with your medication). If that still doesn’t work for you then you have a lot of work to do on your brain’s software in order to figure out why you are having such tremendous problems. Feeling stressed? Maybe you are too identified with the affairs of this world. And it’s true, stuff like that can keep you up at night. This is the way I feel that the medical community should be headed and I am pleased to be part of a spearhead to let the world know it.

The problem is iatrogenic, again. This isn’t some "I’m too anxious to sleep" or "I need to calm down before bed" issue. This is a side effect of a medication. A long walk will do as much to fix his insomnia as an aspirin will do to beat a cancerous tumor.

I appreciate anyone’s view on avoiding sleep medications if possible, but this isn’t really one of those cases.

And wtf nerve damage and brain damage are you talking about with klonopin?

I thought tea’s like Gunpowder(the big leaves IIRC) tea give you energy?

…

There are tons of damage with that crap. Parts of my foot had very little sensation and it took like 6 months of healing to feel those parts again. I could barely move my pinky toes and that was only on my left foot, not my right.

This is just the tip of the iceberg of all the damage I suffered by using that crap.

While respecting your profession do understand that my views generally are not friendly of medical science.

If he is stable and nearly functional without the medication and can apply a serious effort towards transforming his psychology and applying moderate exercise and healthy foods, I would recommend that he do that.

Yes it may be iatrogenic but why is he all hyped up on MAOI’s and stuff in the first place. It is because of mental imbalance which is a karmic result of his past behaviors. There are a million of things that can lead to mental disturbance.

It may sound hippyish to distance yourself from mainstream culture and live a simple life but that would be enough to solve a lot of mental problems. Our culture generates a lot of desire and anxiety within people that pushes them past their limits and generates significant mental toxicity.

This is meant in a practical way. What I am saying here is the chemical imbalances in these situation are a result of bad thought processes caused by listening to music that numbs emotions, or due to a really bad attitude that was developed in order to live in a harsh society, the list goes on and on.

Psychiatry has distanced themselves from working with the actual problem and in practical reality the psychologists and psychiatrists do not work together. There is a large divide that is unacceptable.

We need to start getting to the real causes, the roots of the roots of the mental disorders. As a doctor I am hoping that these words ring true with you. I already know that doctors always apt for a change in lifestyle as opposed to medication so you can appreciate these words.

Whatever is in the tea that I take causes me to drop about 2-3 hours later. If you are taking MAOI’s or SSRI’s the results can be the opposite or weird so obviously some people here should not go running strait into trying a bunch of herbal teas.

If you really thought that all teas give you energy then I suggest you read up on that. The human entity is amazingly complex and even light herbs can lead to effects within the organism. Modern medical science has been very critical of herbs and some have said they do nothing. Everything you take in has some effect, even if it is barely noticeable it can become part of the math equation and sometimes the subtle effect is the one that makes the big difference.

That is withdrawal, not damage. There is a tremendous difference. Withdrawal of that severity is typically associates with abuse and only very rarely with therapeutic use.

I suppose I can’t argue a point when your belief is that pathology resides in the intangible. Seems silly to ignore what’s in front of your face for some more complicated explanation with no basis in science.

Hmm. The words we use are not toys. He looks pretty damaged to me. Nerves are obviously involved in that, and they are not healthy. There is damage there on whatever level or whatever extreme. I suffered extreme disharmony and there was damage. If you want to apply the extreme of cell death of the nerves then I have no idea of the extent that existed. But it certainly caused brain and nervous "damage".

I know I’m bugging you and I’m not trying to start a fight.

What has happened to him is just the extreme example of the damage that drug does, and the damage that those drugs do.

It occurs in increasing levels. The drugs change you forever, when I took that one 1mg Klonopin a couple of weeks ago I knew that my cells, body and brain have not gone back to forgetting the effects of the drug. It brought me right back to where I left off with it. Medical science usually does not go so deep into stuff like this. It is too complex for one mind to handle.

Posted today at 02:46 AM

obligatory reply: search for posts by me with the word melatonin. it changed my life. i hadn’t gotten a regular night’s sleep in over 20 years and within weeks was going to bed at 11pm and waking at 7am. it was (and still is) fucking GLORIOUS!!!

and before you dismiss it thinking "i tried melatonin" but so had i. this time it worked because i did it on a schedule. look up the posts.

I know this thread is old but just another +1 to stay away from Benzos… they work like a charm for relaxing/ helping you fall asleep but strangely I have never gotten an actual refreshing (deep?) deep sleep that way

That’s typical. They tend to reduce the amount of slow wave and REM you get at night, which theoretically reduces the "refreshment" of your sleep. You tend to hang out in St2 a lot more.

take medication that causes insomnia. take medication for insomnia. take another medication to counter effects of insomnia medication

sounds like a shitty cycle

Unfortunately that’s the state of psych medicine today. It’s almost entirely symptom control. It’s the best we have – and it’s certainly better than suicide or near-catatonia or any of the other possible outcomes.

i tried ambien, xanax, halcion (spelled very wrong i’m sure)

and they didn’t do a thing

they gave me Mirtazapine for depression (it didn’t help the depression) and that stuff is like a tranqulizer dart, within an hour or so i’m done, i have got to go to sleep doesn’t matter if it’s the couch or in bed, and i’m done for 10+ hours unless i set the alarm and have to get up earlier.

it’s not a sleeping medication but if you can get your doctor to prescribe it to you assuming i’m not a freak and it effects everyone this way wow does it knock me out

(but if i take it more than once or twice a week i start getting used to it and it doesn’t have the same effect)

For non prescribed meds

a supplement i used was Gaba, it tasted terrible but it really helped me sleep and it helped day after day i didn’t seem to build a tolerence to it, but it only assisted me to sleep it didn’t knock me out like the drug above.

Remeron (Mirtazipine) has worked for me before, however like the last post said it knocked me on my ass for hours.
My current med cocktail that I take at night to help with sleep is 400mg Serouqel (also for antipsychotic features), 2mg Klonopin, and 10mg Ambien. I don’t fall right to sleep anymore, it takes a few hours. Then I sleep for like 4 hours wake up and take another 25mg Seroquel and either 1mg Ativan or Klonopin and I’m out for another 6+ hours.

For me what works best is going to bed around 2-5am and sleeping until 1-5pm. But I’m also unemployed and disabled so I don’t have a schedule to keep unless it’s the bi-weekly doctors appointments, and group therapy whenever I feel like going, but since it starts at 9am and lasts until noon I’m rarely there.

Does Zopiclone (I guess the substance/ active agent is similar to ambien in the US?) have the same effect? Feels a little better but still not great.
In any case, Mirtazipine sounds promising!

Triazolam is nuts. The dentist prescribed it for me before long appointments and I literally forget 90% of what happens after I take it. Could not imagine taking it for a long time.

Trazodone, ftw.

It can. Less so than most of the benzodiazepines, but it still binds to the same site and works in the exact same way as benzodiazepines.

Mirtazipine is m’eh. I’d say go for trazodone first and see what happens. Melatonin can help, but only if used properly – which 99% of people don’t.

get off MAOI

start trazodone

sleep

this message brought to you by an insocoleptic

I find a couple of Benadryl work great, once in a while, not an every night thing

anybody else have issues with trazodone and congestion? It helps me get really drowsy but then I wake up and can’t breathe. Google suggests it might go away with time, but it’s miserable to deal with.

I would definitely advise staying away from the z-drugs (ambien/zolpidem, zopiclone, lunesta) and other benzodiazepine drugs. Talk with your doc about trazodone or amitriptyline, if you haven’t already tried those. OTC sleep aids only work for a very short period of time before you develop a tolerance to them.

Why would you stay away from the z-drugs?

are you a troll, or "tough love" guy of this subforum?

because im willing to bet my ass off youve never had insomnia!

I know this is an old thread, but I’ll add to it anyhow.. For me, I had bad hangovers from trazodone, but then I started on loxapine and its been wonderful. I get a solid, restful sleep and no hangover.

I tried melatonin a few times… all it did was make me weirdly active when I did fall asleep. Lots of sleepwalking… I’d go to bed in one outfit and wake up in another, thrash around all night, etc.

Benadryl actually worked really well for me.

LOL, what. It’s 2:22AM on a Friday morning and I’m here on OT. I’m on Valerian and a bunch of other herbs trying to get to sleep.

Yes I’ve had insomnia. I’ve also used z drugs like Zopiclone, etc, benzos of many different kinds, melatonin, etc.

The healthiest and safest bet for the average Joe is to take some Valerian (etc) sleepy stuff you get from Wal Mart. Make sure your liver is in fine shape as I feel the herbs can be pretty strong. Go for a lot of exersize in the late afternoon but not too late. Then try to stay away from the computer in the evening, perhaps eat a heavy meal to help you become more sleepy.

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