I keep reading threads around here asking "I went on a date with a (bulimic, alcoholic, wife beater, drug abuser, neo-nazi, etc) but I’m wondering if I should continue. I mean, s/he seems really cool and……." blah blah blah.

If you knowingly enter a relationship with the idea "but I CAN CHANGE HIM/HER" then you have as many issues as the person you’re trying to change and could probably use more help fixing *YOU* than fixing the other person.

I’m not saying if your wife gets cancer you should dump her, or if you find out your 3-year boyfriend is a closet alcoholic that it’s automatically over. I’m saying if you go on a date or two and have no emotional attachment, and essentially come away thinking "s/he will be *PERFECT* once i change _________ (some thing)" and that thing is a major life issue, you might as well hang up your dating shoes and head straight to therapy.

Your title and main point are different. I can like someone that issues and not try to change them. I can also try to change someone with issues or without them. So are you saying someone is fucked up for dating someone with issues or for trying to correct the "issues".
Trying to correct the issues. I agree to some extents. If its something they’re already working on there’s no reason to not join them in their pursuits, just tread lightly and keep in mind the situation if they fall into old habits.

I’m saying exactly what i said.

If you don’t know someone and go on a date or two with them and find out they’ve got a serious issue, and you still choose to continue, you have issues too.

i wouldn’t have a problem getting in a relationship with someone who is an alcoholic and is sober or working to get sober.

but if someone is an alcoholic with no intention of changing and you choose to start a relationship with the idea "once I fix that then s/he will be PERFECT" then you’ve probably got more wrong with you than the alcoholic does.

agreed.
Back in the day when I was dating I found myself in a position to make some choices.
I had to decide what sort of women were worthy of my time.

I knew what was attractive to me and what wasn’t. I really am not attracted to black girls. (oh no I said it!!! Quick, break out the batons, he doesn’t want to date black chicks RACIST!)
I didn’t mind occasional drinkers. But if she was the sort of person who had to have alcohol included in every damnable thing I was out.
Absolutely a non-smokers. Fuck those smokers. They can get lung disease and go to hell.

And kids.

Now, the kids thing weighed on me.
I felt that I had been really careful with my life. I had *chosen* to not have kids before marriage. I knew guys that were tied up with kids to women they didn’t see. Looked like a pretty horrible experience to me. I wanted no part of it.

But…. and I struggled with this …. if she was a white woman I was attracted to, didn’t do drugs, only an occasional drinker, didn’t smoke but had kids why not give her a chance?

Should she be punished because she had this baggage, when otherwise she was fine?

No guilt over ruling out black girls. None. Zero guilt on telling smokers to go fuck themselves. You smoke pot? You are a dirty drug smoking criminal.

But if she had a kid I felt really guilty about it. Like I was punishing her.

What I eventually decided was this.
I had made all the proper decisions to get to 30 years old without any kids. My reasoning for doing so was solid. No kids before marriage. No kids to a woman whom I wasn’t already committed to spending my life with. It wasn’t always easy, it wasn’t luck and it required forethought.

Why should I be saddled with someone else’s bad decision when I had worked so hard to make good ones in my life?

Besides, there are plenty of guys out there with kids running around. She doesn’t need me. She can hook up with one of them.

—————–

Before you date someone with baggage you REALLY have to think about yourself.
It isn’t luck that you don’t have said baggage. You are not an alcoholic because you decide when it is appropriate and inapropriate to drink. You have the self control and common sense to say, ‘Hey I can’t drink tonight I have to work tomorrow.’.
Why should you saddle yourself with someone that isn’t that smart?

If you are riding in a car with someone carrying pot, you get pulled over and the pot is found, do you have any idea how easy it is for YOU to have a drug conviction from that?
Why should you saddle yourself with that risk when you have spent your life making good decisions?

These people, there are plenty of others like them that they can hook up with. You are not punishing them by not dating them.
When they are an ex-alcoholic with a few years under there belts we can talk. But until then, go away.
we all have to weigh things for ourselves, but I wouldn’t consider a children "baggage". i understand kids means an ex- of some sort, and other commitments and priorities, but my posts have been more about something like an addiction or problem that the person isn’t dealing with. i wouldn’t put kids (as long as she’s a decent mother) in that category.
If I went on a few dates and discovered my new suitor was cooking meth in his trailor in the desert I would probably not go on any more dates with him.

I have a girlfiend who has been involved with someone for two months and there are already a bunch of issues and she has cried about this a number of times. I keep telling her this is not going to get any better but I really don’t know what she’s going to do. I hope she gets out of this thing soon because at two months into it if there are already substantial issues, that is just a big red flag for me.

I’m going to be dating again next year and am trying to keep an eye out for things like that. Right now I am nowhere near being ready to date again but if the person has any big issues that I find about early on, I am just not going to stick around.

I agree, as long as there isn’t an ex constantly in the picture. My current girlfriend has an almost 2 year old son, father isn’t on the birth certificate, no child support so no chance of visitation, and he lives out of state. I was more than OK with all of that.

She’s also a recovering/recovered meth addict. Clean for 4 years before I met her. I am OK dating her now since she moved far away from her old friends, and the things that got her started with all of that. And she did it all BEFORE she met me, so I know she did it for herself which is a big part of recovery IMHO.

I don’t have reservations with controlled drinking and marijuana, but that probably just means I’m "messed up" in that area myself. So it all works out lol

just a heads-up, child support is not a prerequisite for visitation.

sounds like there’s more going on so you don’t have to worry about him coming around, but your statement above is not correct.

Oh I did not know that. I figured if he wasn’t on the birth certificate he had no legal backing to see the child. But I will admit…I don’t know much about this type of thing.

What if, hypothetically, this woman was single with kids because she’d been widowed? Would this change anything for you?
Its hard because people are far from perfect,they often hide their imperfections so you’d might only find out later and are already stuck in the relationship, and on top you have to pick from this imperfect selection of human beings, in the end you are right because its better to be alone then to be together with someone who ruins your life and pulls you down into the blackhole of problems that they have. Those kind of people need psychiatric counselling and NOT a relationship.

I disagree with this. You’re NEVER "stuck in a relationship". You can end it at any time…the only time I see major difficulties is if you are living with the other person or something like that.

If you’re not, and it’s just a time thing…well, even if you’ve been together for years and years, you’re not stuck.

However, it’s all somewhat moot, because I would most definitely encourage someone to really get to know someone well before moving in together, getting married, having kids, etc. Trust your instincts too…if something feels "off" about a person, there is usually a reason.

Also, seconding the whole "don’t view relationships as fixer uppers".

I’d prefer you not reply to my posts or post in my threads. When someone thinks it would be ok to kill a handicapped kid, you have nothing to add to any discussion I’m in.

I disagree, because opinions are not always in-line with your preferences,and besides if people would agree on everything then opinions and discussion forums would be without value, also this topic has no relation between the other topic so i have to dismiss your reason on why i should not post in it.
I disagree with your title… I mean, if you know they have problems and you’re willing to work with them / around them, whatever, you’re not necessarily fucked in the head. If you go in thinking you’re going to change their life and make them all better, then you have issues, or you’re at least in denial….

All that being said, your title and your OP don’t exactly say the same thing.

I don’t want or expect opinions to be in line with mine. What I said and will say again more clearly is you are fucked in the head for believing it should be on to kill a handicapped child so you have nothing to add to any discussion I’m in.

yeah actually the title and main idea are exactly the same, thanks n

Actually, this:

Is not the exact same thing as this:

The first says you have issues regardless, the second says you have issues if you think you can change them.

The first says you have issues if you start a relationship with someone who you know has issues, the seconds says you have issues if you start a relationship with someone who you know has issues.

I’m pretty sure those women and their "bad decisions" (otherwise known as their beloved children…) aren’t going to miss your hot relationship action if this is the kind of judgmental bs you’re working with anyway.

I am amazed nobody picked this guy up on this? I mean, ok, kids as a dealbreaker, sure, I get it. But kids being talked about with a straight face in a thread where the matters of discussion are serious addictions and dangerous behaviours? Wow.

How do you know that the woman didn’t make a perfectly logical decision to have that child in the context of a steady relationship?

Oh I feel so guilty, sob, sniff Some guys amaze me.

[I am not a single mother btw]

Anyway, I wouldn’t go so far as to say someone who merely gets into a relationship with someone with serious issues has issues themselves, it obviously depends entirely on whether the problem at hand is a dealbreaker (I’m splitting hairs here), but they probably do if they’re under the illusion that things will change. They could change, but anybody would be an absolute fool to count on it when all of the evidence up to that time points to a lack of ability or willingness to change.
You can’t find a person on the planet who doesn’t have an issue

Everyone has an issue.
Not everyone is damaged.
There is a difference.

And it stymies you that people will, at times, go out of their way to, selflessly, help another?

Granted, you are correct in your assessment that they’ll have issues too in that they, vicariously, take on the issues of the person they’re attempting to help by way of enabling them to work through them so that they, too, can find the better parts of themselves.

Admittedly I’m a bit confused by your, albeit unconscious contradiction of the ideology you’re attempting to convey, so is it that you fail to acknowledge the existence of common Human kindness, or is it that you think that such virtue is worthless? That no one is worth the effort?

Many are capable of seeing virtues in others that they, themselves, are not even aware of and all that it takes to bring those into perspective for them is a little effort on anothers’ behalf because, well, the other thinks they are worth the effort and don’t we all like to believe that we are worth the effort?

Afterall, how would you like it if you were to have spent your entire life with everyone around you turning their backs on you when you came to them for help or when they saw you in need, yet passed on by while ignoring your obvious need for assistance?

What if the whole of the World were filled with people just like that? A bunch of narcissistic, self-obsessed, inconsiderate, egomaniacal, self-serving douchebags?

I’d wager that none of us would be here today if such were the case.

opinions are one thing. You spew shit all over everything you touch

I’ll be willing to give you that, but if you willingly start a relationship with a person who has serious life issues, you’re fucked in the head, whether or not you think you can change them

Hey, help people all you want.

There’s a world of difference between helping a person and getting into a serious relationship with them while they still need help

Thanks.

It’s like poeple are reading the title and maybe the first few words and are replying based on what they THINK I was going to say.

I did NOT say not to help people, but I’m tired of correcting people’s guess at what I wrote.

I get what you’re saying, my point is that it is Human nature to want to help another, even if doing so may appear futile to others, even to ourselves for that matter, as we are ingrained to be compassionate towards others, ingrained to want to see others better themselves and ingrained to want to help them get/be better.

Sometimes, it is perceived that the only way that we could be of a help to another is by engaging in a relationship with them so that we can then "understand where they’re coming from", be it to help them or just to learn of the pathology involved so that we’d better understand what ailment it is that would bring a person to the depths in which we’ve found them because it is also Human nature to want to understand and the only way that anyone can truly understand another is by walking a mile in their shoes, even if you’re the one having to dress them.

you appear to not be getting what i’m saying because i never said you should not help another.

are you saying the only way you can help a drug addict is to become a drug addict? that’s ludicrous.

IMO, you’re questioning why someone would sacrifice themselves to help another when they are aware that the other has "issues", to which I’ve answered ‘because it is our nature to do so’.

Other than that, you also seem to propose the idea that the only reason why someone would help someone with issues is because they, themselves, have their own issues and, perhaps, feel some sort of attraction to a fellow kindred spirit/can relate to them as a result, perhaps as a means of helping them to cope with their own issues or develop the tools to deal with them…Correct?

No, I am saying that it is sometimes necessary to get into the mind of another in order to understand from where it is that they are coming so that you can understand the choices they’ve made in their life that have led them to the place where they are when you happened upon them as a means of discerning the (potential) errors in their judgement that prompted them to make the decisions they have.

You see, much of the time the one with the "issues" doesn’t understand (let alone sometimes even realize) how it is that they’ve ended up where they are and enlightening them to these miscues can, oftentimes, aid them in recovery because they are then able to see/realize the missteps they’ve made as a means of illuminating just how illogical it is for them to pursue the course they are on, which is an important step in the process of recovery, as the root of the ailment/addiction inevitably lies in the mind, be it through the artificial manipulation of drugs (much like the toxins in cigarette smoke act upon the neuro receptors in the mind) or external, sociological conditioning.

I suppose that’s true to a certain level. Especially if they have SERIOUS issues, but in a way that can be totally relative.

I stopped reading here.

If you’re not going to read what I wrote then why would you expect me to read all this crap?

and you’re pretty fucking stupid if you get into relationships to ‘fix’ a person

Know what? I’ll blame myself for this, I expected OT to think a little and this guy apparently can’t …maybe the problem is that I used the word relationship when I meant intimate relationship, boyfriend/girlfriend, husband/wife, etc.

I am fully on board with helping people and I’ve tried to fix broken people in my lifetime. What I meant in my original post (what I said actually, but apparently people can’t read) was if a woman goes on a date or two with a guy and thinks "I’ll let myself fall in love with him even though he beat his last girlfriend because he’ll be perfect once i help him get past that" then she has as many issues as him.

You can change the scenario around to be any *real* significant damage. Her letting her teeth scrape on the fork isn’t damage…her being bulimic is.

I read all of your "crap", how in the hell do you think that I came up with all of the "crap" I posted?!

Perhaps, though, we should start back at the beginning with your telling me her name (or a name), followed by your outlining your experience in the relationship since what you, ultimately, seem to be looking for are explanations/validations/reasons what things went the way they did in the relationship you’ve on your mind.

No, you have misconstrued the message I was attempting to convey in that a "relationship" can take on the guise of any number of arrangements, none of which have to be a direct/inter-personal one.

And again, no, I do not "get into relationships to fix a person", I get into the sort of relationship you’re referring to because a mutual attraction, similarity of interests, a shared sense of comfort and security in one anothers’ company, etc., etc., and, ultimately, to experience that uppermost virtue of all, Love.

As well you should! Now you clarify your position…Ironic how it is that you blame others for your inability to accurately express yourself/the concept you’re attempting to convey, that is, blame others because you cannot find the proper words to say what you want to say.

As for the woman in your scenario, I’ll have to fall back on the Human nature argument, particularly in this regard as it concerns a woman, because it is the inherent nature of women to be nurturing and caring…It’s just what they do, even if the odds against her helping anything out are apparent to everyone but her, she is physiologically wired to try anyway.

So you were making an argument about nothing anyone else had been discussing? Because it’s pretty fucking clear that the type of relationship he was referring to was one of lovers

She’s psychologically wired to be a mother to the weak, not a lover.

In fact, she’s psychologically wired to be a lover to the strong. Yet more proof that if she becomes a lover to the weak and damaged, it’s because she’s damaged herself.
The main problem, I think, is that people now have the option to browse through people like a catalog and pick who they want the most.

Since there is so much selection and so forth, people are more competitive and often sacrifice much in order to obtain the most attractive partner.

Now I hope I’m not losing you here. I speak in generalizations but hopefully you can at least get the point of what I am saying.

This leaves much to be desired because no one can ever meet all your expectations and not only that but people often repress who they really are to impress you.

Thus over time these sort of issues spring up.

Back before dating services you were forced to date whoever was local. Near your farm, in your village, factory, school and so forth.

This is how I met my first girlfriend. At school. She looked pretty so I asked her out. It turns out she had schizophrenia, which she hid well enough from my naive self until we were far enough into the relationship that it was very obvious.

Nowadays people would choose to avoid any sort of perceived negative in a person. They have the choice to.

I’m not sure this is a good thing. Difficulties that were naturally there tend to add passion to a relationship, as it offers something that had to be overcome. When you "picked" someone from a dating service, as if you had ordered a sofa, you are filled with expectations which the partner might not be able to meet. This seems to be the wrong way to go about it.

tldr

ok, you want me to believe you’re reading these posts but then go on to post this

I very clearly stated in post #1 why I got the idea for this thread.

Seriously, if you’re not going to read the posts you should stop hitting reply.

thanks. This justan troll is getting old.

I used proper words and I’m a big enough person to apologize for you being too stupid to interpret my meaning.

You think it’s better to be forced to deal with someone’s issues just because "she’s closest to where I live" rather than have choices of who to date?

Btw, you say the schizo was your first girlfriend…..did you stay with her and marry her and are you still together?
Ya heard me.

I am chatting with her on MSN right now.

I did not stay with her and marry her. That is not the point, you can marry anyone who is easy to get along with but void of passion. Many people do that.

No, I was merely covering a base that had been overlooked, as I had already covered the interpersonal relationship that lovers share, as a means of illuminating every scenario so that nothing would be left uncovered by way of addressing all possible paradigms in an effort to incorporate every possibility of the narrative issue as investigation of all angles could, potentially, yield an as of yet unconsidered rationale.

It’s just something that I do.

Women are also psychologically wired to be nurturing in a relationship and, if you are unaware of that, then you don’t know/have never experienced a relationship with a woman as those in Love have the tendency to nurture one another.

Yes, that is what you said in your opening post, yet it is understood that people, typically, do not go out of their way to take the time to highlight an issue as a means of encouraging a discussion about it unless it is of some relevance to them, even if only on a subconscious level, which is why I asked.

Only you are aware of whats on your mind and, as a direct result of this faculty, only you are responsible for devising the terminology necessary to convey it to another in a comprehensible fashion to them (see above reply to your other post).

Are you implying that, because we are no longer confined by geographical boundaries, we have become more prone to superficiality whereas before we were more so interested in discovering just who the person was before we undertook a relationship with them inasmuch they were all that was available?

I like your "sofa" example…Ever order anything from IKEA only to find something was left out of the packaging, lol?

"Passion" is very important to maintaining a stable relationship.
Yes. Nowadays we think we know what we want when we really don’t know anything at all.

We are always changing and bored with ourselves and interests change over the months and years. Who was cool today is boring tomorrow.

We will never know another person really, and we don’t even know ourselves.

Real love is beyond conditions, "unconditional love" that accepts the defects of the person.

It can be said that real love is one soul sharing two bodies.

Many cold and bitter marriages exist based on preference. A wrong mentality exists.

Yes, ignore what I said and try to psychoanalyze me instead even though my reason/relevance was openly stated. People (women mostly) post shit like "he’s an alcoholic and gets violent when he drinks but we went on a second date and he seems *really* nice. Should I keep dating him?" and it half humors me and half pisses me off so I posted about it.

But keep up the good work Freud, you’re doing great

My first post used the word relationship and then gave 2 examples that were romantic in nature. If you couldn’t figure out I meant romantic relationship then you’re really kind of dense.

So you were making an argument about nothing anyone else was discussing, hence, as you termed it, it being ‘overlooked’

Relevance? We’re discussing people who get into relationships with damaged people
I think its hard, there’s no one who is ‘perfect’ in this world, i think that correcting eachother within a relationship can lead to growth in both partners. I think that makes people better partners in the end.
many people are not attractive enough to take their first choice, so they have to settle with fucked up people, or die alone, why is this news

This thread is more about the question whether its better to die alone then to go into a relationship with someone who is messed up. The fact that people settle for less is indeed not new.

And I think I wish you wouldn’t post in my threads but since you refuse to honor that request my next suggestion is that you read the fucking posts and not reply based on what you guess people might have said.

You are addressing a point never made in this thread. If you can’t keep up don’t reply.

No it’s not. Please shut up.

Where did you see that mentioned?
Yup, I have issues. I started a relationship with an extremely childish person about one year ago… Communication was AWFUL. I’m too blunt and he’s too… airheaded? We broke up today. I don’t even know how I feel right now. I now know it wasn’t going to work for long anyway… but I guess love isn’t enough sometimes. Especially when today he was telling me flat out in my face he loved me but wanted to only be friends. Screw friendship, if it’s over, it’s over…

Just when I thought I learnt my lesson I end up with someone entirely different, but with issues nonetheless. And, well, I do have my own issues too (bluntness being one I guess… he couldn’t take it).

Well, you did emphasize that I should try to understand you before I responded.

Oh, and I have addressed the theme of your posts.

No, I was just covering all of the bases because nothing, especially when it comes to relationships, is ever wrote in stone and varies greatly from one couple to the next.

Again, I was just being thorough.

No you have not, and I’m beginning to question whether you even understand my posts.

And it is your opinion that neither Love nor nurture plays a part in the motivation driving the individuals in such situations?

I suppose the real question is whether or not you understand your posts, particularly the motivation behind them, as you come across as someone who is attempting to avert blame by placing it squarely on the shoulders of the woman in the hypothetical relationship as though you are faulting her for having the audacity to engage in a relationship with you/someone "damaged".

Guys? when you’re getting this worked up over a thread…maybe it’s time to take a break from it for awhile?

This is all hypothetical and the TS’s opinion. No need to get defensive of a non-existent person.

I’m not "upset", I am only conducting an analysis as a means of discerning the true motivation behind their pursuit of this issue because, as I pointed out, someone typically doesn’t go out of their way to make an issue out of something that isn’t an issue to them on some level.
I don’t think its a bad idea to get with someone who is damaged if you are damaged in the same way. I think you can both fill each others voids as you understand their pain.

I’ll state this real simply…You proposed that people get into relationships with others that have issues because they, themselves, have their own issues, to which I responded by insisting that it wasn’t so much that the person who got into the relationship with the "damaged" person had their own issues as it was that it…is…Human nature…to…want…to…help…people, especially when it comes to women because they are also wired for compassion and to nurture.

Do you understand now?

Here, simpler still, she gets into the relationship because she is wired to care, nurture, help.

Now, there are an entirely different set of circumstances involved when it comes to engaging in, or continuing, an abusive relationship. For reference, see "Variations on Stockholm Syndrome":

Other than that though, it’s just Human nature to want to help out those in need because, subconsciously, we all want to see everyone win, everyone triumph over adversity because when they do, we do too, if only vicariously.

I can definitely disagree with this. You can feed off each others pain and make everything into a giant, catastrophic mess. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

I agree but think it depends on the circumstances. Empathy goes a long way. It helps to know that someone knows exactly how you feel. You can be yourself around them and not hide it like you would have to otherwise.

If its drugs or substance abuse type damage, well then thats a terrible combo for sure.

Or something such as cutting, and I’ve seen two depressed people wallowing in their depression, and it definitely wasn’t a good thing for either of them.

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